Love the program, hate the location. Advice?

[OutOfPlace]

Hi GradCafe,

 

I'm a 2nd year PhD student in a 5-year program.  Academically, I couldn't ask for a better situation; in particular, I'm working with a fantastic advisor who is essentially the reason I came here.  

 

The problem is, this program is located in a small college town in the South, and I absolutely hate living here.  

 

Almost all my family is on the West Coast, my extended family is in the Midwest, and my closest friends are in the Northeast where I did undergrad - so I'm about as far as you can get from the people who matter to me.  I've spent my life in liberal, urban areas and loved it, and the Southern culture and small town-ness are stifling.  I've made a few good friends, but it's hard to meet people around here who share my interests.  In short, this is the opposite of where I would like to spend the bulk of my twenties.

Now, I knew all this going into it, but I figured that the academics are what mattered and I'd spend all my time working anyways.  I wasn't totally wrong; however, I underestimated the psychological toll of not liking where I live.  I can't stop imagining "grass is always greener" scenarios about what it would be like to have chosen a different school, or to quit and get an industry job.  I also underestimated how long 5 years really is, especially being so very far from my family.

 

I have this raging internal debate between "You'd be a spoiled idiot to give up this opportunity just because you aren't in your perfect city" versus "It's my life and I shouldn't sink 3.5 more years into being unhappy".

 

Or maybe I'm just Sophomore Slumping and looking for excuses?

 

Anyways, I was hoping some of you wise elders might have some advice.  Has anyone been through this before?  Any good ideas for dealing?  Perhaps in the later grad years, it's possible to go out-of-state more often?  Tough love is welcome too, if you think I should just suck it up.

 

Thanks for listening.

[Usmivka]

Hi GradCafe,

 

I'm a 2nd year PhD student in a 5-year program.  Academically, I couldn't ask for a better situation; in particular, I'm working with a fantastic advisor who is essentially the reason I came here.  

 

The problem is, this program is located in a small college town in the South, and I absolutely hate living here.  

 

Almost all my family is on the West Coast, my extended family is in the Midwest, and my closest friends are in the Northeast where I did undergrad - so I'm about as far as you can get from the people who matter to me.  I've spent my life in liberal, urban areas and loved it, and the Southern culture and small town-ness are stifling.  I've made a few good friends, but it's hard to meet people around here who share my interests.  In short, this is the opposite of where I would like to spend the bulk of my twenties.

Now, I knew all this going into it, but I figured that the academics are what mattered and I'd spend all my time working anyways.  I wasn't totally wrong; however, I underestimated the psychological toll of not liking where I live.  I can't stop imagining "grass is always greener" scenarios about what it would be like to have chosen a different school, or to quit and get an industry job.  I also underestimated how long 5 years really is, especially being so very far from my family.

 

I have this raging internal debate between "You'd be a spoiled idiot to give up this opportunity just because you aren't in your perfect city" versus "It's my life and I shouldn't sink 3.5 more years into being unhappy".

 

Or maybe I'm just Sophomore Slumping and looking for excuses?

 

Anyways, I was hoping some of you wise elders might have some advice.  Has anyone been through this before?  Any good ideas for dealing?  Perhaps in the later grad years, it's possible to go out-of-state more often?  Tough love is welcome too, if you think I should just suck it up.

 

Thanks for listening.

2nd year, as in just about to wrap up general/qualifying exams? Why not convert to a MS and apply elsewhere? Where you live can be the difference between bliss and misery irrespective of academic considerations. Grad school is tough, no need to make it tougher by staying somehwere you strongly dislike.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Usmivka

[OutOfPlace]

2nd year, as in just about to wrap up general/qualifying exams? Why not convert to a MS and apply elsewhere? Where you live can be the difference between bliss and misery irrespective of academic considerations. Grad school is tough, no need to make it tougher by staying somehwere you strongly dislike.

 

My program does quals after first year, actually, so I've already passed.  I've also gotten lucky with some unique funding over the past year.  Dropping to MA and transferring isn't out of the question, but it would burn a bridge big time with my program/advisor, and it would probably downgrade me to a less good research fit.  It would also likely "reset" me in the eyes of a new program, so I'd be adding a couple years to the total process.

Actually, the fact that switching programs seems so unviable is part of why I feel so trapped.  Am I wrong for thinking this?

[danieleWrites]

You might be in a 5 year program, but you don't have 5 years left! You're a 2nd year, so you have, what, 3 1/2 or 4 years left?

Now, mental health is a serious issue. It does you no good to stick with the perfect program if you end up needing in-patient therapy. Your program has a selfish interest in your mental well-being, as well. They don't want to be known as the school that gives their grads anxiety disorders along with a degree. Of course, you're getting a PhD. Jobs for PhDs are more along the lines of "beggars can't be choosers" than anything else. There is no guarantee that you will get your PhD and then find a job opening in your comfort zone. There are more Podunk Us than there are cosmopolitan universities.

So, what can you do? That kind of depends on your ability to adapt to your environment. You've been there for a year, probably a year and a half (not counting the time you've been home during break, right?). You've made friends and you've done some things. Cow tipping isn't much fun if you're used to opera (and vice versa). You're, no doubt, still experiencing some culture shock. You're in America, but not like any American you're used to. (These people are totally alien, amirite?)

I think that the first thing you need to do is go to the university's counseling center and get some counseling. You're feeling trapped, rather than bored. A person with a social circle, but not a lot of options for entertainment, would be, in general, bored. That's not you. Trapped is not just feelings of boredom, or feeling like a stranger in a strange land, but also feeling rejected and rejecting at the same time. Trapped is a loss of power, perhaps even a sense of fear and/or distrust in the natives. I was married to the military before I joined it myself. I've moved a ton. Some places felt like a noose around my neck. Other places were just dull.

Once you've spent some time with the counselor and worked your way through your feelings (are you unable to adapt? or do you just need a safe space to work through a foreign subculture?), go speak with your adviser. You're not the first person in the program to have trouble adapting to the small town in the South lifestyle. Tell your adviser that you're having trouble adapting to the culture of the area and ask if s/he has any suggestions for a big city person in a small town world. This will do two things for you: 1) it will give you another person who might have some ideas on how to help you adapt, and 2) your adviser is getting the heads up that your life isn't perfect, so if things do get to the point where you just can't stay a second longer, your adviser won't be surprised by the information.

You obviously have a great student work ethic, so the usual clues about a student in distress aren't appearing. The program likely thinks your world is gravy. If you find a way to diplomatically let them know your life isn't cake (asking for advice is a great way) while also showing (not telling) them that you're doing your absolute best to overcome and adapt, you will have a method to continue to develop their respect and their help, and, if worse comes to worse, they won't get as snitty if you have to leave. This is, of course, assuming that your adviser and professors are normal human beings that have the usual amount of caring for others. Some people are just plain mean and there's nothing you can do about it.

Lastly, see if you can organize a regular trip into the nearest urban area for some fun. A once a month trip to a big city can do wonders. I have a buddy who moved from Brooklyn to Manhattan Kansas. We'd go to Topeka two or three times a month and we'd drag him along once a month. While we did our thing, he'd ride the city bus for an hour. It was enough of home for him to adapt.

[TakeruK]

I can sympathize with how you feel. The first two years of grad school for me was not in an ideal location either and I ended up starting over at a PhD program elsewhere. In Canada (where my first program was), it's normal to go elsewhere after a 2 year MSc (and you can usually only get into PhD programs after a 2 year MSc) so I didn't burn any bridges by leaving though. The abnormal part is that most people stay in Canada (for a 3-4 year PhD following a 2 year MSc) instead of going to the US where I have to start all over. Another difference between our cases is that my new school is a better research and location fit for me! Although one thing that was the same was that my first school is in a tiny town and my advisor there was the reason why I wanted to go there. 

 

However, I had very strong location-based reasons to move away from my first graduate program after my MSc was over. My PhD program search was very motivated by wanting to live in certain geographical areas. I am happier where I am now and I think it is worth it to have started over but be happy with my non-work life. But again, I also think I am in a better place for my career as well, so it's not a matter of location vs. career here (not that the first place was a bad fit, it was actually the best fit possible for me in Canada)

 

It is ultimately up to you and your priorities whether or not you want to start over. I don't think starting over is the end of the world! Here are some thoughts for/against starting over from my point of view, and hopefully they give you some things to think about:

 

Reasons to stay:

1. Like danieleWrites says, you don't have 5 years left! I think the next 3 years will probably go by faster than the first 2 years. 

2. You're in a really good program from what it sounds like, so it might be easier to follow danieleWrites' suggestions about changing your outlook and finishing up your program

3. The timing might not be ideal right now for you to apply to new programs because many deadlines have already passed? So by the time you would change programs, it would be only 2 years left in your current one.

 

Reasons to move:

1. As Usmivka said, grad school is tough enough, so why make it worse? It sounds like you have already completed your MS requirements so getting that and leaving should just be a formality right?

2. For me, location is very important and I would pick location fit over research fit in most cases. The way I see it is that I can easily change my research interests/motivations to fit my work but I would find it extremely difficult to change my personal views and outlook on life. I would be very unhappy if I could not get ethnic foods (especially certain vegetables) where I lived but I would be way less unhappy about having to work on my 2nd or 3rd most interested topic instead of my top choice.

3. Research topics will change a lot and I don't think a PhD thesis should have to be your #1 love. I got advice that I should work on whatever will get me employed, not necessarily what I love the most. In other words, the only requirement for a thesis topic is that you should not hate it...you don't have to love it. I find that many people will not "love" their topic anymore after spending 5+ years studying it in depth!

4. Some people say "you won't get to choose where you live as a postdoc etc. so why worry about it in grad school" but I think about it another way. Since most academics have to go where the job is, I think grad school and post-doc is actually the rare time where you have more control over your location than others. So, I would say to make the most of this chance and pick nice locations now because you might end up somewhere crappy later. My personal goal is to go even more extreme and I have decided that location is more important to me than career, so I would rather not be an academic if I had to live somewhere I did not want. 

 

Just some ideas to think about. I think the main point of what I wrote is that, to me, there isn't that much difference between "#1 best research fit" and even "#5 best research fit"--if you are in a strong department and if you are a skilled worker, you will be able to find success without needing it to be your favourite topic. On the other hand, I think there is a huge difference between "#1 best location fit" and "#5 best location fit". So, if we are considering schools that are roughly equivalent in terms of research fit and resources available, I would just pick schools based on location (which was what I did for my PhD program as I was considering a few schools that were almost equivalent in terms of research fit).

[Loric]

Hi GradCafe,

 

I'm a 2nd year PhD student in a 5-year program.  Academically, I couldn't ask for a better situation; in particular, I'm working with a fantastic advisor who is essentially the reason I came here.  

 

The problem is, this program is located in a small college town in the South, and I absolutely hate living here.  

 

Almost all my family is on the West Coast, my extended family is in the Midwest, and my closest friends are in the Northeast where I did undergrad - so I'm about as far as you can get from the people who matter to me.  I've spent my life in liberal, urban areas and loved it, and the Southern culture and small town-ness are stifling.  I've made a few good friends, but it's hard to meet people around here who share my interests.  In short, this is the opposite of where I would like to spend the bulk of my twenties.

Now, I knew all this going into it, but I figured that the academics are what mattered and I'd spend all my time working anyways.  I wasn't totally wrong; however, I underestimated the psychological toll of not liking where I live.  I can't stop imagining "grass is always greener" scenarios about what it would be like to have chosen a different school, or to quit and get an industry job.  I also underestimated how long 5 years really is, especially being so very far from my family.

 

I have this raging internal debate between "You'd be a spoiled idiot to give up this opportunity just because you aren't in your perfect city" versus "It's my life and I shouldn't sink 3.5 more years into being unhappy".

 

Or maybe I'm just Sophomore Slumping and looking for excuses?

 

Anyways, I was hoping some of you wise elders might have some advice.  Has anyone been through this before?  Any good ideas for dealing?  Perhaps in the later grad years, it's possible to go out-of-state more often?  Tough love is welcome too, if you think I should just suck it up.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Travel. Fly off on a Friday and be back by Monday. Eat cheaper meals and don't pay for cable and you can probably swing it once a month or so, and then after a few times you'll have free trips with airline miles.

[Loric]

Also - if you're wondering "Where?"

 

The answer is ANYWHERE BUT BACK HOME. You feel like you can't live without your family up-the-butt 24/7. Nothing will be worse for you than going back there. Go anywhere else. Get a passport. Buy cheap flights anywhere random. Have adventures.

 

DO NOT GO BACK HOME.

 

The key to coping with compulsions is to delay, delay, delay. Do not go home.

[rising_star]

In a nutshell, just suck it up and finish. I moved across the country for my PhD and didn't love the place I ended up. Like you, I went to a place with a fantastic advisor and any sort of transfer would've meant a downgrade in terms of advisor and research fit. But, I made the most of it by exploring the place and the surrounding area on the weekends. I tried out a few new (to me) activities and fell in love with one of them. I used those activities to meet new people and make friends. I ended up developing such a good personal network out there that I now miss the place even though I still don't like the actual place very much. The trick is to get beyond grad school. There are probably people like you there, even if you don't know it. Go to grad school wide social events, go to Meetup groups, go on reddit (if that's your thing) to find what people do in/near where you are, etc.

 

Alternately, you can go the route of one my grad school colleagues. He strongly believes in "writing your way out" of wherever you are. If you hate the place and decide to have no social life, then dedicate all that time to working your butt off and graduating sooner. Get your papers submitted now. Start collecting data for the dissertation ASAP and, failing that, at least get the lit review and part of the methods written sooner rather than later. Ultimately, the faster you write, the faster you graduate and, in your case, get the hell out of dodge.

 

Transferring is just a terrible idea in your situation. You'd be downgrading in terms of advisor and research and adding years to your degree just to live somewhere else... That's a lot you'd be giving up without getting a lot in return. Also, not sure what your future career plans are, but you should know that you may not have much choice about where you live, regardless of whether you're trying to be a professor or not. Not all jobs are available everywhere, you know? You're always going to be somewhat far from (some of) the people who know you and care about you. That's why you go out and try to make new friends and meet new people. It is possible if you try. Or, don't try. Put your head down, get your research done, publish a bunch, and then you'll have a lot more choice about where you end up next.

[glm]

I started writing a response telling you to leave and why you should leave, but then I realized: I know nothing about you, your values, your area of study, or your future plans. This is a judgement call. As someone who was repelled from a "perfect" research opportunity due to location (also in the south), let me just say this: I don't think your unhappiness with the location is silly. If I were in your situation, I would start looking for opportunities in different locations.

[McKenna]

I completely understand.  I moved in June before my first year started and decided by July that I would be finishing only a masters.  It significantly lowered my stipend but that's about all.  My PI was very understanding and confided that he was not accepting any more grad students, I was the last one, because he wanted to retire.  Now he gets to retire 3 years sooner and it honestly made him smile.  So you just never know.

 

I am also in a small town place in a Gulf Coast state.  Your story sounds so much like mine.  I'm also from the West, extended family in Midwest, very strong work ethic.  This town has almost no cultural stuff like museums.  I cannot have a social conversation with most around here because their views are so different than mine.  It is purely a tourist haven and military town.  The DUI rate in this county is the highest per capita in the state.  Every day the news shows another DUI rollover, fatal, head on, drove a pickup into the river...  

 

I've discovered that most of the grad students here graduated UG from here so they are getting some scholarship money to stay in this state.  There are much more rigorous programs in the state, but not for my major.  So I will finish a masters and then decide if I really want the PhD.

[OutOfPlace]

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies.  It's really helpful, even just to hear that my problems aren't insane or unique.  To highlight some specific takeaways that were really helpful:

 

1. I should consider seeking help from counselors and advisors.  I kept thinking, well, I'm certainly not depressed so that's not necessary.  But you're right; counselors will still have good advice, and give my advisor the subtle heads-up that things aren't awesome is a good idea.

 

2. If I were to transfer, it would be with 2 years left in my program, which isn't very long.  I could, in theory, leave this program with a Masters at the end of this year. Sounds tempting, but the truth is, I would then have to either work in industry for a while (forever?) or take an awkward gap year doing nothing.  Neither of those are good options.  Realistically, I'm committed here for at least another year, at which point it seems like 2 more isn't so bad.

 

3. Traveling is a good thing.  I was sort of trying to embrace where I am and not run off every other weekend - but I think I'll be happier if I get my city/friends/family fix a little more often.

Thanks again to all of you, this has been extremely helpful, and I definitely feel better equipped to take on the next year or so and make good decisions for myself about where to go from there.

[juilletmercredi]

I agree with a good deal of the advice that you've been given in this thread, but I want to add one thing.  People have encouraged getting away from your location more often, and I agree - you need to go see your friends and family to stay sane, and if you have people who are willing to let you sleep on their couch you have only the cost of a plane ticket to contend with.  I have hosted friends from all over the country in my apartment before I moved to one too small to do so.

 

BUT I also wanted to add - learn to love, or at least make your peace with, the place you live.

 

Even if you were able as a grad student to flit off to an exotic locale every weekend, you STILL have to be around M-F to do your work.  But I'm guessing that in reality the most you'll be able to get out will be once every month or so, so you're still going to be spending the majority of the next 3 years of your life in Small Southern Town.  You've got to make your peace with where you live, otherwise you will be miserable and counting the days until you move somewhere else.  And trust me, this is not productive for work - I remember in the middle years of my program, I started to hate the place that I lived and everything about it and I desperately wanted to move somewhere else.  My program is in New York City.  I had dreamed about coming to live here.  Most happiness research shows that people tend to grow where they're planted, and the majority of people can be at least content in most places.  That's not saying that location is not important.  Indeed, I am one of those who would rather give up academia than live somewhere I don't want to live.  What I'm saying is that I think that a lot of us need to change our ideas of what's "undesirable" and open ourselves to embracing a culture that may be slightly different than we envisioned; conversely, we may be a bit wrong about what we think we really want.  I thought I was a big city girl who would thrive in the vertical concrete jungle that is NYC, but I miss trees and cars and horrible shopping malls more than I ever thought I would.

 

My point is - perhaps your feelings about your small Southern town are unconsciously biasing you towards being unhappy there?  (In my middle years of the program, my general unhappiness in my program was definitely directed into anger at NYC.)  There may not be anyone who shares your intellectual interests, but in my experience people are more alike than they are dissimilar, so maybe there are some other hobbies or things you enjoy that you can find friends through.  Or perhaps you discover a new hobby or interest - I joined a social sports league to meet friends in NYC, and I recently started running and there are running clubs EVERYWHERE.  Many of my current friends are employees of the university, actually; many entry-level employees at the university are in their mid-to-late 20s and early 30s.  I met them through working at the school, but if you go to some of the school's sponsored social events you might meet people at all levels.  In fact, at this point in my life I think I am the only one in my close friend group who's still in graduate school.  Perhaps get involved at the university level - run for grad student senator (nobody ever wants to do this!), work in residential life (where I met most of my current close friends), join some other grad student group around.

 

So while I agree with getting away every now and then, you also need to make sure that you are at least content on the days that you're in town.

[Lifesaver]

Stick it out!! In the grand scheme of life, five years really isn't a long time.

 

I was born and raised in New York City and decided to go to college in Louisiana. It was a HUGE change! I spent the bulk of my free time exploring the state/nearby states, and really embracing all that they had to offer. On the surface, your small college town may seem pretty dreadful, but I guarantee there are cool things for you to check out within a few hours. I firmly believe that everyone needs a mental health break (ie: weekend away) in order to reset and regain focus on what's important. Even if it's going home (their home, not yours) with a friend overnight, do it. Get away. It's good to have a change of scenery.

 

If you need suggestions on where to go and what to see, let me know. I've traveled fairly extensively in the south during the past few years.

[med latte]

Once you are ABD, could you write your dissertation in a location you like and meet with your advisor  by Skype and occasional visits to campus? (Forgive me if this is a stupid question.....honestly wondering.......)

[TakeruK]

Once you are ABD, could you write your dissertation in a location you like and meet with your advisor  by Skype and occasional visits to campus? (Forgive me if this is a stupid question.....honestly wondering.......)

 

Are you asking about the OP's specific case, or just in general?

 

If in general, then yeah I do know many students who do this. I know some profs who do this too during the summers. I would say that during the school year, it's helpful to be around the department in order to attend seminars, meet visitors, work as a TA as necessary. But in the summers, some students (and some profs) spend most of their time elsewhere and work remotely. This tends to be more common with, but not limited to, grad students in long distance relationships.

[gr8pumpkin]

  I kept thinking, well, I'm certainly not depressed so that's not necessary.  

 

Are you sure?

 

ETA: Sometimes when we are depressed, we look for "reasons" just to hang our hat on something that explains why we're depressed.  Like, say, "oh, it must be the town" or something like that.  We assume something causes the "down" feeling, when it's really the down feeling that's just there to begin with and then we look for reasons to explain it away.  Just some food for thought.

Edited March 18, 2014 by gr8pumpkin

[wildviolet]

I'm beginning to like where I am, and I never thought I would. I can sympathize about being in the South. At the same time, I have a lot of biases and preconceptions about the South. When I actually visited the South, I found people there a lot more charming, warm, and friendly than I would have thought. Sorry, OP, I'm probably not being very helpful... just sharing my own experience of learning to like the place where I live (for now). Glass half-full tends to be my outlook on life, I suppose.

Edited March 20, 2014 by wildviolet