grad dating undergrad

[spectastic]

20 years is a pretty big gap.

 

but who cares? do what you want.

 

 

the possibility for academic dishonesty is an entirely different issue though, and it'd be hard to not lump academics and personal affairs together. If I were to do anything, I might discourage them from taking classes together in the future, and tread carefully about how I say what I say.

[DerpTastic]

If they were, in fact, dating before the semester started, that presents another huge issue: why would you enroll in a class where you SO was a TA/student?

 

Hello, extremely apparent conflict of interest. If they were dating before the class started, they should have avoided the situation entirely by having the student enroll in a different section or informing administration ahead of time. That situation never should have happened, is highly suspicious, and, in my mind, is almost more serious. 

 

As you say, "Rules exist to protect serious wrongdoing, not to modify behaviour so that they meet some arbitrary set of 'standards.’” --Exactly, like don’t enroll in a class when someone you are dating is the TA (or, if you are a TA, the student). This has unethical slathered all over it. 

It's very possible that this was the only section available, or it was the only section with a time slot that worked for his/her schedule. There have been TONS of times I have scheduled and even if there were three or more sections, only one fit in my schedule. There's not way you can assume that they could have without getting that information directly from the student.

Edited March 13, 2014 by DerpTastic

[Kamisha]

It's very possible that this was the only section available, or it was the only section with a time slot that worked for his/her schedule. There have been TONS of times I have scheduled and even if there were three or more sections, only one fit in my schedule. There's not way you can assume that they could have without getting that information directly from the student.

 

Like I said in my post, it would have been better to avoid the class entirely or inform the administration ahead of time. According to the OP, school policy says that all relationships must be reported. If the student couldn’t have found another section, they should have followed universities policies. 

[LittleDarlings]

Why are there so many excuses for this situation? I mean if it is so harmless then present it to the dean or whoever and they can decide if it is "harmless".

[Eigen]

There are excuses because the OP is being nosy. 

 

There's no evidence that the situation is causing harm, and the OP isn't directly related to the situation in any way.

 

Were there allegations of some sort of favoritism or problems, it might be different. 

 

Also, as mentioned, and as I've asked, is the OP sure that the professor teaching the class doesn't know?

 

Going to the Dean or DGS about something like this without a solid reason will not hold any grad student in good stead. A reason of "but it's not following the rules" really isn't a good reason, without showing some harm or worry of harm. 

 

And even then, the person to talk to would be, imo, the graduate student. It's easy to say "Hey, I noticed you're dating so-and-so. I'm not sure if you know, but all relationships have to be reported- I'd hate to see you get in trouble.". That's the collegial thing to do, assuming that it was a non-intentional or non-malicious error on their part. 

 

Depending on what they say, you could then go to the professor teaching the class and let them know. 

[Eigen]

I'm going to disagree with you on this, TakeruK. It is not the OP's responsibility to collect evidence and then turn that over. In fact, most institutions would still have to do their own investigation so there's no reason for the OP to be sneaking around trying to collect evidence. At my PhD University, no one is supposed to grade for someone they are in a romantic relationship with. TAs are told this during their orientation (run by the university and mandatory to receive your paycheck). There are lots of responsibilities covered for TAs. If there are concerns, the first step, at least here, is to either go to the DGS in your department or to the university teaching center. They can and will look into these sorts of things because no one wants a situation where the students feel like their grading was unequal based on their (lack of a) personal relationship with the TA. I know our teaching center has been involved in mediating these sorts of issues in the past. The action typically taken is to ensure that the TA has no grading authority for the student whatsoever. The other is to ensure that the TA does NOT do any grading or answer student emails or anything that might be a FERPA violation if the partner is around. That is to protect the other students' privacy and is an issue even when the TA is no longer grading their partner. The potential FERPA violations are a chief reason why my university requires disclosure and also why the OP should bring this up to someone.

 

Your example of grad students TAing/grading for other grad students is actually quite different. Graduate course grading is done differently and the entire class knows one another. I don't think anyone is saying that you can't be friends with a TA or take a class your friend is teaching. But questions will be raised if you are romantically involved with that person, in no small part because of the potential for sexual harassment allegations to arise.

 

Just to respond to this, it will be University dependent. 

 

We had no TA workshop when I started, mandatory or otherwise. We also never got a copy of any official university policies or handbooks. I naively didn't even know they existed until about a year and a half in, at which point I wondered why in the world my department or school wouldn't have made them more obvious. 

[TakeruK]

I'm going to disagree with you on this, TakeruK. It is not the OP's responsibility to collect evidence and then turn that over. In fact, most institutions would still have to do their own investigation so there's no reason for the OP to be sneaking around trying to collect evidence. 

 

Yes, you are right--the OP should not bear the burden/responsibility of proving the TA's guilt. What I meant is that if the OP suspects something bad is going on, they should not talk to the other graduate student first (as suggested by someone else), but instead go directly to whoever is responsible for handling cases like this. I wrote the suggestion to "gather evidence" if the OP wanted to do something but wasn't sure what. However, upon reflection, I should have written this more carefully to not imply that the OP play the role of a detective and sneak around getting evidence.

 

What I intended was that if the OP knew some unethical behaviour was happening, for a fact (e.g. instances where he/she overheard the TA [or the TA telling the OP] about their misconduct) then the OP should document it (e.g. record date/what was said) and then tell the people responsible for academic honesty. I am sorry if I was sloppy in my writing and that it sounds like I wanted graduate students to become detectives! But I just want to point out that eventually, the school will have to prove the TA's guilt, and I don't think lack of proof of not favouring their SO is proof that they favoured their SO in grading. [Which is exactly why reporting policies happen so that everyone can avoid this type of complicated scenario!] However, I should not have implied that the responsibility for providing proof is with the OP or other graduate students!

 

Finally, I do want to explain one policy at my current school. I think this policy is a little strange and not typical of most places. But it's interesting to note to also show the diversity of how these situations are handled. At my school, as a TA, if I notice potential plagiarism in my students' work, the policy is for me to report it directly to the campus-wide organization for academic honesty, not the professor of the course. In fact, at orientation, we were trained to not even mention it to the students involved or anyone at all. I am to make a copy of all the materials and then grade the work as if I did not notice the plagiarism and submit the proof to the campus-wide organization. This organization performs their own investigation and decides the outcome. This might mean an instance of cheating is not caught until after the term ends so that the grades might actually be retroactively changed to a F.

 

The reasoning behind this policy is that it is intended to

 

1) protect students from false accusations. If the TA is wrong in their judgement of academic dishonesty, then no one (not even the prof of the course) ever knows the student was suspected of dishonesty other than the TA. This protects them from being negatively judged because generally this type of investigation has bad results for one's reputation even if it results in an "innocent" or "not guilty" type verdict.

 

2) since the investigation begins before the accused student knows it's happening, it reduces the ability of the student to hide evidence once they know they have been caught.

 

I'm not entirely sure I agree with everything behind this policy (e.g. I feel it's a bit of an entrapment issue), but I do agree with some of its intentions. I do think we can learn from a policy like this though, which is why I think if actual unethical behaviour is happening, the OP should not confront the suspected TA about it!

 

(Edit: Just to really clarify--if there is suspected wrongdoing, I think the OP should go to the proper authority and not say anything to the TA. If there is no suspected wrongdoing (other than an unreported relationship) and the OP is worried that their colleague might get in trouble because the relationship may be unreported, then the OP should talk to the grad student in question first, instead of immediately reporting it the authorities.)

 

If they were, in fact, dating before the semester started, that presents another huge issue: why would you enroll in a class where you SO was a TA/student?

 

Hello, extremely apparent conflict of interest. If they were dating before the class started, they should have avoided the situation entirely by having the student enroll in a different section or informing administration ahead of time. That situation never should have happened, is highly suspicious, and, in my mind, is almost more serious. 

 

As you say, "Rules exist to protect serious wrongdoing, not to modify behaviour so that they meet some arbitrary set of 'standards.’” --Exactly, like don’t enroll in a class when someone you are dating is the TA (or, if you are a TA, the student). This has unethical slathered all over it. 

 

I guess this part depends on the field/school a lot. Even at my state-school-equivalent undergrad, physics/astro majors are very small so enrolling in another section is not possible. We also have a lot of required classes, so it's not like you can just not take a class because your SO is TAing it. 

 

It is possible for a person to separate their personal and professional/student life. A student should not be barred from enrolling in a class where they have a personal relationship with an instructor. I agree that the couple in question should have disclosed their relationship at the start of the course (and who says they haven't/didn't?) but the couple should be protected from any negative consequences of this disclosure. The student should not be prevented from taking the class and the TA should not be removed of their guaranteed TA allocations (and thus lose funding). Ideally, the TA would be assigned to a different section/class, but this might not be possible with all of the other constraints that comes with TA scheduling.

 

I do think that a rule like "don't enroll in a class where your SO is the TA" (or vice-versa), is a rule that enforces arbitrary standards/opinions (i.e. people in personal relationships cannot act professionally) instead of a rule that protects wrongdoing. I think the version of this rule that protects wrongdoing instead of punishing behaviour is "personal relationships between a TA and a student" should be disclosed to the department as soon as the people involved find out that they will be in the same class.

 

I feel that your opinion here does not adhere to the concept of "innocent until proven guilty". It is not fair nor ethical to assume that every person in a relationship will not be able to act professionally. Personal relationships are an aspect of people's private lives, and unless the school has reason to believe that academic dishonesty is happening, they should not have any negative impact on the people involved. On the other hand, reporting policies (provided that they are done in a fair way) are good, because it helps the school figure out arrangements so that academic integrity is preserved. But other than reporting a relationship when necessary, students/TAs in relationships should not have any further responsibilities that they would not have as single people anyways (i.e. TAs are expected to grade everyone fairly, whether in a relationship or not!)

Edited March 13, 2014 by TakeruK

[Vene]

Why are there so many excuses for this situation? I mean if it is so harmless then present it to the dean or whoever and they can decide if it is "harmless".

For the same reason that every lawyer tells their clients not to consent to a search, even if they are 100% innocent of any wrongdoing.

[LittleDarlings]

There are excuses because the OP is being nosy.

There's no evidence that the situation is causing harm, and the OP isn't directly related to the situation in any way.

Were there allegations of some sort of favoritism or problems, it might be different.

Also, as mentioned, and as I've asked, is the OP sure that the professor teaching the class doesn't know?

Going to the Dean or DGS about something like this without a solid reason will not hold any grad student in good stead. A reason of "but it's not following the rules" really isn't a good reason, without showing some harm or worry of harm.

And even then, the person to talk to would be, imo, the graduate student. It's easy to say "Hey, I noticed you're dating so-and-so. I'm not sure if you know, but all relationships have to be reported- I'd hate to see you get in trouble.". That's the collegial thing to do, assuming that it was a non-intentional or non-malicious error on their part.

Depending on what they say, you could then go to the professor teaching the class and let them know.

I'm sure the OP can anonymously make a complaint to at least initiate an investigation.

Yeah I'm so sure the student didn't know that dating their teacher was suspect.. Right

Edited March 13, 2014 by LittleDarlings

[rising_star]

TakeruK, depending on the wording of the policy, there is no "guilt" to prove. If, as the OP said, there is a policy requiring disclosure then there isn't much to prove there... Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "guilt". Yes, people can act professionally. But consider all the conversations you have with your SO about work, which in the case of TAs also often means complaining about students and/or their work. If your SO is also a student in that class, that is a huge conflict of interest, even if there are no grading improprieties. If there are exams, the student in the relationship may have access that no one else has. Whether or not they use it may not even be the question. The fact that they have access to materials that are unavailable to the rest of the class and that would get them labeled as cheaters if they had and used them is unethical, at best. This is why universities have disclosure policies. Not because they believe the TA/professor will automatically give their partner an A but because they have to protect everyone in the situation, including the class as a whole. I feel like that point is getting lost in all of this. There are very, very real FERPA concerns when you're living with someone that could have access to your grades, course materials, etc. and thus information they aren't supposed to have.

 

Since we're so into examples, I'll give another one from my PhD University. There's some sort of policy there (this was years ago so I can't remember all the details) that basically involves not doing any grading where a student might have access. This came up because I had roommates who were undergrads and one was enrolled in a class in my department. Had I been the TA for that class, university policy would've required that I not bring any of my grading home, that I not give ze extra "office hours" that were inaccessible to the class writ large, etc. Luckily, ze didn't take the class I was TAing so I could bring papers home (I still kept them away from prying eyes mind you). I imagine that the policy exists largely due to FERPA concerns and the potential for the appearance of impropriety, though I'm not higher education expert.

[Eigen]

I'm sure the OP can anonymously make a complaint to at least initiate an investigation.

Yeah I'm so sure the student didn't know that dating their teacher was suspect.. Right

 

As I've mentioned, at one of the schools I've attended, it wouldn't be. There was no policy against it, including requiring reporting.

[LittleDarlings]

As I've mentioned, at one of the schools I've attended, it wouldn't be. There was no policy against it, including requiring reporting.

I mean I'm sure the OP can read up on the rules and decide if it's worth reporting. Or report it then of they do something cool, if not that's ok. I feel like if the student didn't want their relationship to be known they wouldn't show it off so oh well sucks to be them I hope they get into trouble.

[cbttcher]

I hope they get into trouble.

 

Why do you want them to get into trouble? We don't know if there was any actual wrongdoing. We just know that OP thought it was suspicious. Nothing more. Wishing for someone else to get into trouble because of something you don't approve of is simply awful. 

[LittleDarlings]

Why do you want them to get into trouble? We don't know if there was any actual wrongdoing. We just know that OP thought it was suspicious. Nothing more. Wishing for someone else to get into trouble because of something you don't approve of is simply awful.

It is just suspect and they deserve to get in trouble or have a stern talking to. If it's not wrong then fine but it should be brought to someone attention and then they can decide how to handle it.

[cbttcher]

It is just suspect and they deserve to get in trouble or have a stern talking to. If it's not wrong then fine but it should be brought to someone attention and then they can decide how to handle it.

 

We don't know if it's suspect. We don't know if the TA told the professor beforehand. On this thread, we have limited information on which you cannot base whether they deserve to get into trouble or not.

[LittleDarlings]

Ok well too bad then they can bring it to a head person and let them decide if it's acceptable.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

I was a TA dating an undergrad in my class.  We've been married for 14 years now, one son.  No regrets.

You bad boy, you. 

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

If they were, in fact, dating before the semester started, that presents another huge issue: why would you enroll in a class where you SO was a TA/student?

 

Hello, extremely apparent conflict of interest. If they were dating before the class started, they should have avoided the situation entirely by having the student enroll in a different section or informing administration ahead of time. That situation never should have happened, is highly suspicious, and, in my mind, is almost more serious. 

 

As you say, "Rules exist to protect serious wrongdoing, not to modify behaviour so that they meet some arbitrary set of 'standards.’” --Exactly, like don’t enroll in a class when someone you are dating is the TA (or, if you are a TA, the student). This has unethical slathered all over it. 

You don't know if the undergrad needed this class. At least at my university, many of the required classes are only offered once a year or once every two years, so when it comes around, you take it. Or, in my second field, computer science, classes are offered every semester but you must take classes in a certain order since every class has a specific pre-req. In this case, once again, if a class is offered, you take it. 

[Kamisha]

You don't know if the undergrad needed this class. At least at my university, many of the required classes are only offered once a year or once every two years, so when it comes around, you take it. Or, in my second field, computer science, classes are offered every semester but you must take classes in a certain order since every class has a specific pre-req. In this case, once again, if a class is offered, you take it. 

 

Again, like I said, "or informing administration ahead of time” if it was necessary for the student to be in that section. 

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

LittleDarlings, on 13 Mar 2014 - 6:45 PM, said:

I hope they get into trouble.

Why do you want them to get into trouble?

Because she's jealous that she has a boyfriend. 

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Again, like I said, "or informing administration ahead of time” if it was necessary for the student to be in that section. 

Do we know the professor doesn't know? The OP said that the only rule related to this is that the TA must inform the professor about the relationship. The OP, as far as I know, doesn't know if the TA told the professor. So we really can't say anything. All the unethical talk is irrelevant if the school's only policy is that the TA must notify the professor. Also, all the 20-year age gap stuff is irrelevant because it's none of anyone's business. This case is simple. If the professor doesn't know, then the TA (and the student to a lesser degree) is in the wrong. However, we don't know if the professor knows, and if the OP or whoever else wants to be a nosy asshole and make a giant mess out of nothing, then go head. 

[LittleDarlings]

LittleDarlings, on 13 Mar 2014 - 6:45 PM, said:

Because she's jealous that she has a boyfriend.

Like I said team jealous Bitch over here and not caring! I actually would wish worse things on them but I don't want the bad karma

[cbttcher]

Because she's jealous that she has a boyfriend. 

 

 

And always upvoting the posts I downvoted and downvoting the posts I upvoted. So mature.

[LittleDarlings]

And always upvoting the posts I downvoted and downvoting the posts I upvoted. So mature.

Yeah totally team immature:)

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Yeah totally team immature:)

Why are you talking in Twilight?