Gender discrimination as a TA/student attendance

[fuzzylogician]

I don't even know what the fuck you are talking about at this point. 

 

Watch your language. There are other, more constructive ways, to indicate that you didn't understand what someone said. 

[shadowclaw]

Speaking in generalities here:

 

When a male student flirts with a female TA, he's doing it because he is attracted to her. She is an object of his desire. Emphasis on her being an object.

 

When a female student flirts with a male TA, it's because he's in a position of authority and she wants favor. It is not because she desires him, instead she is trying to use her body as currency.

 

There is a world of difference between these two events.

 

Vene, are you generalizing the examples posted in this thread only, or are you making generalizations about men and women and why they flirt TA's in general? I am hoping just this thread, because I am quite certain that both types of situations are applicable to each gender.

 

http://swns.com/news/woman-beat-men-to-be-most-organised-in-the-workplace-2003/

 

https://books.google.ca/books?id=5YNfNAorfuIC&pg=PA197&lpg=PA197&dq="women+are+more+helpful"+study&source=bl&ots=gJmHhLcATQ&sig=yQRdPFoDdGrgtCDW-Pw6ZhLIkwk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TzvZVITsHcTHsQSslIG4Dw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q="women%20are%20more%20helpful"%20study&f=false

Could you briefly describe the content of the second link? Google books will not show it to me. As for your first link, I don't think it is very useful. Aside from the article not even mentioning what journal or university the study was associated with (which as far as I'm concerned means it's completely fabricated with no citation or information for us to verify its legitimacy), self-reported information isn't always reliable. People lie (even when anonymous) and something like being organized is highly subjective. Given a survey about organization, I would probably say my desk is organized even though it looks like a bomb went off, simply because I know what's on my desk and the approximate location of everything.

[lifealive]

I don't even know what the fuck you are talking about at this point. 

[GeoDUDE!]

I'm really hoping, that victorydance is just doing a lousy job describing a situation that requires a bunch of nuance (hahaha, a bunch of nuance, what an oxymoron). I don't think any educated person can say that gender discrimination, especially against women, is not a problem. What I have tried to suggest, and maybe victorydance ( I hope), is that when you start to assume a scatter plot trend (ie, the instances when there is discrimination) applies to every particular situation. I realize that this is a burden, and on online forums we can take stronger stances with less fear of consequences, but that assumption init of itself is discrimination. 

 

A group of X attacks people. Every time someone sees an X, he/she thinks they will be attacked, when in fact, the majority of the time X's do not attack. 

 

Thats when we get the patriot act.

[victorydance]

Watch your language. There are other, more constructive ways, to indicate that you didn't understand what someone said. 

 

Well maybe if that poster didn't write every single one of their posts in straw man-laced rhetoric, I would be more likely to understand what they are talking about. Regardless, I won't be addressing them any longer.

Edited February 10, 2015 by victorydance

[victorydance]

Could you briefly describe the content of the second link? Google books will not show it to me. As for your first link, I don't think it is very useful. Aside from the article not even mentioning what journal or university the study was associated with (which as far as I'm concerned means it's completely fabricated with no citation or information for us to verify its legitimacy), self-reported information isn't always reliable. People lie (even when anonymous) and something like being organized is highly subjective. Given a survey about organization, I would probably say my desk is organized even though it looks like a bomb went off, simply because I know what's on my desk and the approximate location of everything.

 

I'll just copy and paste:

 

How Women and Men Help Their Friends: Several articles and books focus on how people help their friends in real-life settings. These studies often find that womean are more helpful (Belansky & Boggiano, 1994; D. George et al. 1998, S. E Taylor 2002). 

 

The survey was done by the private-sector, a company called DYMO. Regardless, I spent about 5 seconds googling to get those two links. 

Edited February 10, 2015 by victorydance

[lifealive]

I'm really hoping, that victorydance is just doing a lousy job describing a situation that requires a bunch of nuance (hahaha, a bunch of nuance, what an oxymoron). I don't think any educated person can say that gender discrimination, especially against women, is not a problem. What I have tried to suggest, and maybe victorydance ( I hope), is that when you start to assume a scatter plot trend (ie, the instances when there is discrimination) applies to every particular situation. I realize that this is a burden, and on online forums we can take stronger stances with less fear of consequences, but that assumption init of itself is discrimination. 

 

A group of X attacks people. Every time someone sees an X, he/she thinks they will be attacked, when in fact, the majority of the time X's do not attack. 

 

Thats when we get the patriot act.

 

Actually, what most people have done in this thread is corroborate their personal experiences with outside studies demonstrating the gender bias that runs through course evaluations, classroom dynamics, and student perceptions of authority. Fascinatingly, few people have engaged with this material, instead choosing to dismiss (and dare I say mansplain away) personal experiences as evidence of myopic confirmation bias.

 

Why isn't the burden on you to demonstrate that the world is as fair and unbiased as you think it is? After all, we've seen people right here in this thread espouse creepy, sexist, and essentialist viewpoints--that women use their looks to manipulate male TAs; that it's okay for male students to want to be familiar with attractive female TAs; that women are just more cooperative and approachable like that; that women's objections to these sentiments is just evidence of "a bunch of women" complaining; that women should just get back to work and stop noticing these pesky incidents because it's inconvenient and distracting.

 

So while it might be safe to say that one can rarely prove that they're the victim of discrimination, it's also safe to say that this thread has been a real eye-opening example of the truly off-kilter attitudes that people hold about gender relationships. 

[dr. t]

"You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day."

[GeoDUDE!]

Actually, what most people have done in this thread is corroborate their personal experiences with outside studies demonstrating the gender bias that runs through course evaluations, classroom dynamics, and student perceptions of authority. 

 

Why isn't the burden on you to demonstrate that the world is as fair and unbiased as you think it is? 

 

Forgive me for being a little rude, but for being so "eye opening" you haven't really read my post. I never commented on what MOST people are doing in this thread, but what particular set of people are doing.

 

its really disheartening that you aren't taking the time to listen(read) to whoever's points. I don't blame you, victorydance hasn't been the most eloquent or nice in his responses. I probably wouldn't bother responding to him either. I'm pretty shocked that I'm responding to you to be honest, because short of "f****", you have been just as dogmatic. And maybe your right, but it really doesn't matter, because I wouldn't call this conversation civil at this point. Point your fingers at whoever you want.

 

And when did I ever state the world is fair and unbiased? In fact I said the opposite, and have been worried that in our attempts to create a balance we end up creating a society with a different imbalance, as evident by your vitriol. That we have to think critically of what we should and should not assume, because a world where we assume that everyone here is out to hurt us is the kind of world we read about in dystopian books. 

 

And while I realize that women might take the crown for the most discriminated group of people in history, and at present, I am no stranger to discrimination. I am just offering some thoughts, because my particular group of people have had a lot of trouble getting past that, and our country (Israel) falls into these problems all the time. Yeah, I just made that comparison, its not 100% equivalent, but the mentality is strikingly similar. 

 

I refuse to live in a world where I think everyone is evil. Maybe that is my "privilege" as a male or whatever. Perhaps I need to be checked.

[ilovelab]

Wow this thread got derailed quickly

[lifealive]

Forgive me for being a little rude, but for being so "eye opening" you haven't really read my post. I never commented on what MOST people are doing in this thread, but what particular set of people are doing.

 

its really disheartening that you aren't taking the time to listen(read) to whoever's points. I don't blame you, victorydance hasn't been the most eloquent or nice in his responses. I probably wouldn't bother responding to him either. I'm pretty shocked that I'm responding to you to be honest, because short of "f****", you have been just as dogmatic. And maybe your right, but it really doesn't matter, because I wouldn't call this conversation civil at this point. Point your fingers at whoever you want.

 

Nope, I won't police my tone for you. And my response to you was perfectly civil.

 

However, when someone trots out the dim and anti-intellectual framework of evolutionary psychology to justify discrimination, or to justify dismissing other people's claims of experiencing discrimination, that doesn't exactly deserve some quiet and pleasing diplomatic response. I mean, it's evolutionary psychology. Sorry, but this is a forum for people devoted to higher education. Evolutionary psychology is going to get denounced for the bullshit that it is.

 

And when did I ever state the world is fair and unbiased? In fact I said the opposite, and have been worried that in our attempts to create a balance we end up creating a society with a different imbalance, as evident by your vitriol. That we have to think critically of what we should and should not assume, because a world where we assume that everyone here is out to hurt us is the kind of world we read about in dystopian books.

 

 

No one here said that the world is out to hurt everyone.

 

What people here have done, however, is dismiss others' experience with gender discrimination, telling them that they're imagining things, or they're seeing what they want to see, or making too big a deal of discrimination. At the same time, other people in this thread have voiced extraordinarily sexist sentiments. So as much as you want to argue that people here are simply making unsupported assumptions about the existence of gender bias in their everyday lives, the very content of this thread proves you wrong.

 

Additionally, if you think that my "vitriol"--or, in other words, my objection to people's dismissive attitudes--is the equivalent to the societal power imbalance that gender discrimination creates, you need to rethink some things. See telkanuru's post at the top of this page. I'll requote it quickly here: "You cannot balance the scales by adding inequality to one side as a counterweight to inequality on the other and achieve justice thereby. When someone provides an anecdote to illustrate how they felt injured, ignored, or discriminated against because of some inherent feature they happened to possess (race, sexual or gender identity), the correct response is not to provide a counter-anecdote which shows that you, too, have once been injured, ignored, or discriminated against."

 

I refuse to live in a world where I think everyone is evil.

 

 

To the best of my knowledge, no one called anyone evil. it's interesting, though, that that's what people hear when others call them on their sexism. To recap: "Hey, guess what, it's not cool to excuse male students for their bad behavior simply because the female TA is attractive. It's also not cool to say things like 'women are just more organized' and 'men are just more entertaining because of mating rituals.'" "You think people are EVIL. You're attacking me!"

 

No. That, my dear, is called derailing. 

Edited February 10, 2015 by lifealive

[mockturtle]

Lifealive, I would +1 every last one of your posts, if I hadn't run out of positive votes "+1"ing the first half of them. Keep fighting the good fight 

[Crucial BBQ]

If I had multiple TAs, I would email them all; partially to cover my own behind by leaving a paper trail (no one TA could claim to have "not received" the email) and partially because I would feel awkward if I only emailed one (I would be afraid of showing favortism).

 

In terms of the OP, and why male students would email the female TA their sick leave notices, my guess is that it is because the male students are assuming that the female TA is going to be more "motherly" and understanding and granting the multiple days off okay.  I can see the bias here and I only offer it as a possible reason, not an excuse.   People are most likely to go to those who they feel will respond the most favorably.  That seems logical enough, in particular when one is asking for a favor.  The problem is that when assumptions and biases, knowingly or unknowingly, lead one to ask a particular person for the favor over another without question, but, problems also arise when one assumes that person's motives to be biased, too.  The only way to erase gender bias is through honest discussion, which means uncomfortable conversations from all sides. 

 

We share ideas through communications, learn from our mistakes, and grow from our new understandings.  If one cannot be allowed to speak their minds, no matter how much *you* disagree with them, then nothing will ever be accomplished.  By all means counter thoughts and opinions and conventions with your own; challenging established norms is a good thing for society.  Just be careful of falling into the trappings of dogma.  By dismissing one's ideas as BS in an attempt to shut them down, in the end you wind up reinforcing those beliefs within them: both of you seeing the other as a crackpot.   

 

You don't change minds from bashing someone in the face with your message, or from repeatedly telling them they are stupid for not agreeing with your perspective.  We could all stand to me more mindful of others.  Myself surely included.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a first time (female) TA.  Here's the situation:

The (male) prof doesn't really take attendance but he wants students to e-mail the TAs with an excuse for absence.  The syllabus DOES set a limited of how many unexcused absence students can have before their grades suffer.

 

I'm the female TA for half of the class.  The other TA is a male.  I've received a healthy number of excuses, mostly from male students.  I asked the other TA if he's received any e-mail from the students.  He said not really and was a bit surprised to hear that I had n students e-mail me today.

 

I suspected that something might be in the works here.  But the problem is that the prof has told us "As long as students have legit excuses, just say 'ok'."  I had a student who claims to be running a fever and "is worried" if missing two classes would be a problem.  I forwarded the e-mail onto the prof as I didn't know the answer and the prof said just let it go and wish him to get better.

 

Has anyone been in this situation before where their gender actually mattered?  How did you deal with it?  One of the female colleagues told me that she's very strict about excuses.  But when students uses illness (and it is winter after all), it's hard not to excuse them.  The prof didn't say anything about needing a doctor's note (and I did have one female student who took an extra step to attach a note).

If I were the male TA in this situation I would feel dejected over the lack of students emailing me.  If I were in your situation, I would take my cue from the female colleague; the prof does not seem to care.   

[ilovelab]

If I were the male TA in this situation I would feel dejected over the lack of students emailing me.  If I were in your situation, I would take my cue from the female colleague; the prof does not seem to care.   

  If I were the male TA I would be ecstatic. Fewer students emailing me = less work I have to do and more time I can spend on research and in the lab. That would be awesome if they bugged another TA instead of me.

 

I wonder if there is a difference between the disciplines. In most of my science classes students would go and bug the "Nice/hepful" TA. Mainly because they assumed they could get more hints/clues on assignments and exams. They were usually right. It didn't matter if the TA was male or female. Having been the "Nice/helpful" TA for a bio course I was the one who the students came to bug during exams or for assignments. I was the one who got the emails. There was no gender discrimination involved in these instances. I don't know about other fields though. 

[Sigaba]

I'm a first time (female) TA.  Here's the situation:

The (male) prof doesn't really take attendance but he wants students to e-mail the TAs with an excuse for absence.  The syllabus DOES set a limited of how many unexcused absence students can have before their grades suffer.

 

I'm the female TA for half of the class.  The other TA is a male.  I've received a healthy number of excuses, mostly from male students.  I asked the other TA if he's received any e-mail from the students.  He said not really and was a bit surprised to hear that I had n students e-mail me today.

 

I suspected that something might be in the works here.  But the problem is that the prof has told us "As long as students have legit excuses, just say 'ok'."  I had a student who claims to be running a fever and "is worried" if missing two classes would be a problem.  I forwarded the e-mail onto the prof as I didn't know the answer and the prof said just let it go and wish him to get better.

 

Has anyone been in this situation before where their gender actually mattered?  How did you deal with it?  One of the female colleagues told me that she's very strict about excuses.  But when students uses illness (and it is winter after all), it's hard not to excuse them.  The prof didn't say anything about needing a doctor's note (and I did have one female student who took an extra step to attach a note).

 

@TMP

 

IMO, the primary factor here (that is, with this specific issue) is not your gender but your level of experience as a teaching assistant. You have a different view than your boss on how attendance should be tracked. Your boss has given additional guidance on how to handle potential abuses of the policy. Your boss's syllabus gives both of you the opportunity and the authority to address excessive absences when evaluating students' work. I think the problem is yours:  you've been tasked administer a policy that you simply don't like. (I have been in similar shoes several times. Sometimes, the best one can do is to embrace the suck.)

 

If n (the number of email messages you receive) is so large that it impacts your ability to do your job, it is incumbent upon you to find a more efficient way to count the beans. This issue may require building a better spreadsheet. It may require you convincing your professor to "tweak" the policy by telling students to email both T.A.s and then the two of you splitting the email 50/50. It may require you building rapport with those students who are frequently absent and trying to motivate them to come to class more often. (A way to encourage students to attend class and to work hard is to suggest that they think of you as their advocate. If they want that boarder line grade to go up at the end of the term, they need to prove to you during the term that they're worth the effort.)

 

I do suspect that your gender may have been factor in how your team mate responding to your concern. Rather than leaning forward and saying "Tell me more" or asking "What can I do to help you?" he blew you off. 

 

IRT to the broader discussion of gender bias in the Ivory Tower. I am of the view that it exists, that it is virulent, and that all parties pay an incalculable cost for allowing it to continue. I further believe that stakeholders are not where they need to be when it comes to listening, and to talking about it and finding solutions that work. 

 

My $0.02.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Sigaba

[juilletmercredi]

I think gender matters, but I think it's difficult to determine whether gender actually matters in this case. It could be gender-based - that they perceive you as being more "motherly" and more likely to to accept their excuses. There could be other reasons the students are contacting you and not the male TA - he could have a different personality or style in dealing with them. It's unfortunately not possible to know without a student telling you explicitly.

 

I agree, though, that the important part is figuring out some kind of solution to it. Perhaps you should divide the class in half alphabetically and instruct students with last names A-L to talk to the male TA and M-Z to talk to you when they need to submit excuses. I also think that if you're the TA for the class, you probably shouldn't fret about absences more than the professor does. If simple confirmation over email is good enough for him, it's good enough for you.

 

I, personally, am not strict about excuses. I don't favor requiring doctor's notes because it encourages students to go to the doctor when they don't need to; also, going to the doctor costs money and not all students can afford that. Plus there are some illnesses that don't require a doctor's visit. I favor structuring the class in such a way to encourage attendance and discourage absences - like frequent quizzes, group work, making participation part of the grade, etc. Another thing is to give students 3 freebie absences that they can use however they like without an excuse throughout the semester - but anything more than that and their grade drops a letter grade (unless they have documented evidence of serious illness requiring hospitalization, death in the family, or something of that magnitude).

[fuzzylogician]

I, personally, am not strict about excuses. I don't favor requiring doctor's notes because it encourages students to go to the doctor when they don't need to; also, going to the doctor costs money and not all students can afford that. Plus there are some illnesses that don't require a doctor's visit. I favor structuring the class in such a way to encourage attendance and discourage absences - like frequent quizzes, group work, making participation part of the grade, etc. Another thing is to give students 3 freebie absences that they can use however they like without an excuse throughout the semester - but anything more than that and their grade drops a letter grade (unless they have documented evidence of serious illness requiring hospitalization, death in the family, or something of that magnitude).

 

I used to care about absences and people copying on their homework and such. I don't anymore, I guess I've become as jaded as my professors who I used to make fun of for that same reason. There is too much crap to fight it all, and most of the time you can't succeed even if you try really hard. You have to learn to pick your battles. I am still pissed by blatant cheating and will take care of that, but I give them a freebie low homework grade removed from their final grade, no questions asked, and it could be a zero on something they didn't submit. For large classes, I am also happy with a couple of freebie absences, but I have a clear policy that I don't make up material at office hours if they don't have a good reason for not showing up for class (and in general, if they haven't demonstrated an independent effort to make materials up). 

 

If I had this problem with my TAs being approached so unevenly, I think we'd have to come up with a way to make sure the work is divided more evenly. The alphabetical way would work, I like that.

[Burr]

Throughout my undergrad, I've had multiple TAs per class only twice. One of those times, we had a TA assigned to us for discussion section, so that is the TA I contacted if I had concerns. As for the other course, I chose to contact the TA who was listed first on the syllabus. That is a bias unto itself: if your last name starts with a letter that's pretty early in the alphabet, chances are you are going to be picked for marginally more things throughout life, including student emails. Of course, this does not invalidate instances of face-to-face discriminatory action (e.g. winking), nor the linked findings re: online courses. Lastly, I can't speak for everyone, but throughout my undergrad, I had no idea as to the level of experience obtained by my TAs before I contacted them. Even if the TAs are introduced at the start of the semester ("Jane Doe is a fourth-year grad student, this is her third time as TA for this course. John Doe is a second-year grad student, this is his first time being a TA."), most students probably do not care enough to remember this info by the time an issue comes up that warrants contacting a TA.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Burr

[TMP]

Wow.  Didn't realize that I started a whole thread....  Update: think the word got around a bit quick that I do pay attention to the attendance sheet so the requests for excused absences have fallen quite fast and the professor suggested that I drop the first two unexcused absences.

 

Recently, it's been mostly the female students and good male students who come to me.  It's a good place to be  The other (male) TA... meanwhile.... messed up two of my students' fates on their first paper (long story) and the professor saw the whole thing. 

 

Seems like the end point is more about your persona/presence than your gender.  

[Sword_Saint]

Really interesting thread. I started reading it because I'll be a TA for the first time soon and figured there would be helpful stuff here, but read through the entire thing because of the discourse about gender dynamics and relationships in academia. 

 

Good discussion. It gives people a lot to think about in regards to their own innate biases and decision making process with respect to gender. 

[twentysix]

Really interesting thread. I started reading it because I'll be a TA for the first time soon and figured there would be helpful stuff here, but read through the entire thing because of the discourse about gender dynamics and relationships in academia. 

 

Good discussion. It gives people a lot to think about in regards to their own innate biases and decision making process with respect to gender. 

 

Wow, your profile photo is offensive.

[Sigaba]

Really interesting thread. I started reading it because I'll be a TA for the first time soon and figured there would be helpful stuff here, but read through the entire thing because of the discourse about gender dynamics and relationships in academia. 

 

Good discussion. It gives people a lot to think about in regards to their own innate biases and decision making process with respect to gender. 

 

What is the deal with your avatar?

[Sword_Saint]

Wow, your profile photo is offensive.

 

 

What is the deal with your avatar?

 

It was a "3rd World Success Kid" meme.

 

Sorry about that, I have taken it down! I have a rather sardonic sense of humor, but didn't intend to be outwardly [or passive-aggressively] offensive or derogatory when I put it up. 

Edited March 26, 2015 by Sword_Saint

[Sigaba]

Sorry about that, I have taken it down! I have a rather sardonic sense of humor, but didn't intend to be outwardly [or passive-aggressively] offensive or derogatory when I put it up. 

 

Your previous post in this thread bears out your good intent, S_S.

[1Q84]

It was a "3rd World Success Kid" meme.

 

Sorry about that, I have taken it down! I have a rather sardonic sense of humor, but didn't intend to be outwardly [or passive-aggressively] offensive or derogatory when I put it up. 

 

If you can't tell that a meme about a baby in Africa having AIDS is "outwardly" offensive and derogatory....

Edited March 27, 2015 by 1Q84