Fall 2016 Acceptances, Interviews, and Rejections Thread

[puton]

30 minutes ago, goofylemon said:

I kindly suggest again to the folks here to not being too obsessed about ranking, talk about your interests. I see so many folks here talking about "aha! top 10", "well, top 20/25". It is meaningless unless you have no idea about your research interests. When you are about to graduate, TT positions/job talks will perhaps look at (in order of priority) #1 your publication #2 who is your adviser, #3 your recommendation letter, and maybe well then your program. 

I received two top-10 offers this year but declined them right away to choose Brown. With my interests in family, social demography, urban soc, China and life course/aging, No place will beat Brown, despite its ranking is a 25. Look, I am not even talking about money.

I have PMed you!

 

[pi515]

2 hours ago, goofylemon said:

I kindly suggest again to the folks here to not being too obsessed about ranking, talk about your interests. I see so many folks here talking about "aha! top 10", "well, top 20/25". It is meaningless unless you have no idea about your research interests. When you are about to graduate, TT positions/job talks will perhaps look at (in order of priority) #1 your publication #2 who is your adviser, #3 your recommendation letter, and maybe well then your program. 

I received two top-10 offers this year but declined them right away to choose Brown. With my interests in family, social demography, urban soc, China and life course/aging, No place will beat Brown, despite its ranking is a 25. Look, I am not even talking about money.

I think the reason behind so much focus on rankings here (and elsewhere) is that rankings matter tremendously in hiring (see the study reported here, for example). There are a few Sociology programs that are known to have excellent placements -- the placement records of most other programs, including some in the top 20, are quite dismal. If you look at Sociology faculty pages, you'll be hard-pressed to find hires even from Cornell or Yale, not to mention graduates from lower-ranked departments. Even most lower-ranked programs rarely hire graduates from lower-ranked programs so chances of landing a tenure-track position if you're not graduating from a top-10 program are slim. And so if one's goal it is to find a tenure-track position at a research university later on, prestige/rankings/placement records matter. I agree with you that the order of priority you mentioned -- "#1 your publication #2 who is your adviser, #3 your recommendation letter, and maybe well then your program" -- would be a more reasonable basis for hiring. Unfortunately, research indicates that this just isn't the case. 

Having said that, I applied to a lower-ranked program and would be thrilled to attend it if accepted because the faculty's research matches my interests very closely. I'd attend knowing, however, that my chances of later on getting a position at one of the top20, or even top50 schools would statistically speaking be none. 

[goofylemon]

14 minutes ago, pi515 said:

I think the reason behind so much focus on rankings here (and elsewhere) is that rankings matter tremendously in hiring (see the study reported here, for example). There are a few Sociology programs that are known to have excellent placements -- the placement records of most other programs, including some in the top 20, are quite dismal. If you look at Sociology faculty pages, you'll be hard-pressed to find hires even from Cornell or Yale, not to mention graduates from lower-ranked departments. Even most lower-ranked programs rarely hire graduates from lower-ranked programs so chances of landing a tenure-track position if you're not graduating from a top-10 program are slim. And so if one's goal it is to find a tenure-track position at a research university later on, prestige/rankings/placement records matter. I agree with you that the order of priority you mentioned -- "#1 your publication #2 who is your adviser, #3 your recommendation letter, and maybe well then your program" -- would be a more reasonable basis for hiring. Unfortunately, research indicates that this just isn't the case. 

Having said that, I applied to a lower-ranked program and would be thrilled to attend it if accepted because the faculty's research matches my interests very closely. I'd attend knowing, however, that my chances of later on getting a position at one of the top20, or even top50 schools would statistically speaking be none. 

         Many people have posted similar links here. While I appreciate your comments, please note political science is very different from sociology. In fact, Polisci programs are much more homogeneous than sociology. Economic is another example of being very very homogeneous. Indeed one program maybe better on one area than another, but the difference is slim. Also note Polisci only has 4 main areas (American, comparative, theory, IR). Econ only has 9. However, Sociology has 30+.

      I would disagree with the comments that top program TT position all comes from top 10 position. If you actually look at the placement of UCSB, Yale( you mentioned this), and Brown, you will find their graduates have very good placement records. Interestingly, some very top-ranked  programs are having declining placement records. 

      Oh to talk about Yale, remember Yale only admits about 3-5 each year. My program has a cohort of only 5-7 each year. They are not Wisc type of program admitting a large number of students, but their placement are at least not weaker than Wisc average.

        In sociology, another different aspect is that research area matters much more. I am in the ASA CLD (crime law deviance) section and the ASA job pool emails just pop up every day at least once. Interestingly, very few of the said "top 10" has criminology. 

      So the cited research has very weak applicability in sociology. If such research has been applied to sociology, the research could be highly biased. Worrying whether is a good choice to decline the two top10 offers, I asked four of my very familiar professors in my current institution (which is also top 20), all of them have selected new faculty before and all of them told me it does not matter as much. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by goofylemon

[qeta]

13 minutes ago, goofylemon said:

Many people have posted similar links here. While I appreciate your comments, please note political science is very different from sociology. In fact, Polisci programs are much more homogeneous than sociology. Economic is another example of being very very homogeneous. Indeed one program maybe better on one area than another, but the difference is slim. Also note Polisci only has 4 main areas (American, comparative, theory, IR). Econ only has 9. However, Sociology has 30+.

While I can't meaningfully weigh in on the role of rankings in getting TT jobs in sociology, I have to say that the above is a spot-on analysis of political science. It is a fairly homogeneous discipline and has worked extremely hard over the last decades, through mainly social/political control rather than bench-building (see D. Patterson, ASR, October 2015), to stamp out variety in perspectives and methods. This makes networks and rankings matter that much more in political science. (Probably should mention that I'm a current MA student in political science, who is taking the slim liferaft of political sociology to get out of my degree and hopefully into a soc PhD program.)

Edited February 12, 2016 by qeta

[pi515]

@goofylemon I agree with you that it's likely that the spread would be somewhat larger if similar studies were done using data from Sociology departments but I'm not sure it'd be significantly so. If you look at placement records, even at some of the top schools, you'll see very few tenure-track positions. Take Brown's record for example, listed here. I count only 3 placements in the top50 schools out of 44 students who have graduated since 2009, with the remaining students in post-doc positions, at universities abroad, or outside of the academia. That's 7% placement in top50 departments, with just one student getting a position in a top20 program. That's not to say that you can't find a meaningful, rewarding position unless you're graduating from Harvard or Berkeley -- it's just highly unlikely that it will be a tenure-track position at a top50 program. So I think whether rankings are a deciding factor would be dependent on your career plans. I think it's a sorry state of affairs that prestige, so narrowly defined, matters this much in hiring but as long as it does, it doesn't seem irrational to pay attention to the rankings when making admission decisions.

p.s. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm questioning your decision, goofylemon - Brown is an amazing program. Congrats! My intention was to point out some reasons why one would be so insistent on paying attention to the rankings. I whole-heartedly agree with you though that there are many other factors one would be wise to take under consideration and that we shouldn't let rankings alone drive our decisions. Congratulations on your acceptances!

Edited February 12, 2016 by pi515

[SincerelyI]

2 hours ago, goofylemon said:

         Many people have posted similar links here. While I appreciate your comments, please note political science is very different from sociology. In fact, Polisci programs are much more homogeneous than sociology. Economic is another example of being very very homogeneous. Indeed one program maybe better on one area than another, but the difference is slim. Also note Polisci only has 4 main areas (American, comparative, theory, IR). Econ only has 9. However, Sociology has 30+.

      I would disagree with the comments that top program TT position all comes from top 10 position. If you actually look at the placement of UCSB, Yale( you mentioned this), and Brown, you will find their graduates have very good placement records. Interestingly, some very top-ranked  programs are having declining placement records. 

      Oh to talk about Yale, remember Yale only admits about 3-5 each year. My program has a cohort of only 5-7 each year. They are not Wisc type of program admitting a large number of students, but their placement are at least not weaker than Wisc average.

        In sociology, another different aspect is that research area matters much more. I am in the ASA CLD (crime law deviance) section and the ASA job pool emails just pop up every day at least once. Interestingly, very few of the said "top 10" has criminology. 

      So the cited research has very weak applicability in sociology. If such research has been applied to sociology, the research could be highly biased. Worrying whether is a good choice to decline the two top10 offers, I asked four of my very familiar professors in my current institution (which is also top 20), all of them have selected new faculty before and all of them told me it does not matter as much. 

@goofylemon, congratulation on your acceptances!

I'd like to ask how one can subscribe to the ASA job pool emails you mentioned. I looked up the website but not even a notice board.. Thanks

[pingaling]

10 hours ago, redhillgirl said:

Im always a little curious as to why people leave their programs. I can imagine there are many possible factors (change in personal life, change of interest,  funding etc)....but can people who are already in a phd program but looking to leave tell us a little bit more as to why they wanna start all over again? (so i can prepare for my future...) 

People are welcome to pm me if they want to ask questions.

The short story is that phds take a very long time (8+ years in my program) and a lot can happen in that time: people get married, family members get sick, advisers retire, financial problems, and poor job market outlooks. 

[ts1493]

11 hours ago, gradstudentsoc said:

yo everyone, i received this email from yale yesterday, was wondering what it meant. have replied but heard nothing so far:

Dear,

 

I am writing you today in my capacity as chair of the graduate admissions committee for the Yale University Department of Sociology.

The other committee members and I have read your file with great interest and are impressed not only with what you have accomplished to this point, but also with your potential.

As we narrow the pool of candidates to the 10 we plan to offer admission, we would be grateful to know if you have already accepted an offer of admission elsewhere.

Thank you for the opportunity to review your exceptional file.

Ron Eyerman

 

 

 

Anyone any insight? 

Congrats on this admission!  I didn't apply to Yale but it's surprising to see that they are offering admission to 10 candidates.  I guess that makes sense, if they expect maybe 5-7 to attend in the fall?  Anyways, great news! 

[goofylemon]

6 hours ago, pi515 said:

@goofylemon I agree with you that it's likely that the spread would be somewhat larger if similar studies were done using data from Sociology departments but I'm not sure it'd be significantly so. If you look at placement records, even at some of the top schools, you'll see very few tenure-track positions. Take Brown's record for example, listed here. I count only 3 placements in the top50 schools out of 44 students who have graduated since 2009, with the remaining students in post-doc positions, at universities abroad, or outside of the academia. That's 7% placement in top50 departments, with just one student getting a position in a top20 program. That's not to say that you can't find a meaningful, rewarding position unless you're graduating from Harvard or Berkeley -- it's just highly unlikely that it will be a tenure-track position at a top50 program. So I think whether rankings are a deciding factor would be dependent on your career plans. I think it's a sorry state of affairs that prestige, so narrowly defined, matters this much in hiring but as long as it does, it doesn't seem irrational to pay attention to the rankings when making admission decisions.

Hey @pi515 I appreciate your comments. While there are only 2 out of 42 graduates in Brown ended up in Top 20 TT position immediately upon graduation, I would like to comment that this is only a record of initial placement. It should be noted that even in Harvard, the initial placement for Top 20 TT is only 4 out of ~60. In this way, the rate between Brown and Harvard (top 6) is roughly 5% vs 7% (which is minimal difference). Also following your method looking at the initial placement of Princeton (which is widely accepted as having the best placement rate), their initial TT placement rate for top 20 is only 5 out of roughly 60 (that even includes a soc-joint appointment!), which is 8.5%. That says, the difference in top 20 TT placement rate is only 3.5%! Of course one can argue that 5% vs 8.5% is a 70% increase, however with the sensitiveness of data, the 70% is rather meaningless.

 

P.S. I found someone gave me a bad reputation on my previous post simply because he/she did not "like" my contents. A bad reputation is generally given to an unhelpful answer or malicious content, which is against the community standards of intellectual exchange. It looked like I really broke that person's heart by saying Top 10 placement is not necessarily better.

        While I really don't care someone pressing that red button under my comments, I would like to say that is exactly an example of how you will see a few of your peers being incapable of communicate well, even at some finest programs in this country. I never want to start a fight, nor I use any offensive words in my comments. Though, I got really annoyed this time. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by goofylemon

[nowayjose]

Rejected from Harvard

[Shay825]

Just received my rejection from Harvard. Totally expected. I just need ONE school to grant me admission. At this point, don't care which.

[kelris]

http://www.socjobrumors.com/topic/prospective-students-making-the-same-mistake-they-always-do

yikes

[gingin6789]

Hugs for @nowayjose and @Shay825!!! 

*offers you both some cookies too*

[nowayjose]

Rejection at least feels good as a form of closure. Move it along, rest of ya

[any5]

16 minutes ago, kelris said:

http://www.socjobrumors.com/topic/prospective-students-making-the-same-mistake-they-always-do

yikes

Here: starry-eyed hopeful naive and excited 

There: jaded tired frustrated realistic experienced

The grass is always greener, my friends. And the grass is always brown.

[notthatgood]

41 minutes ago, goofylemon said:

Hey @pi515 I appreciate your comments. While there are only 2 out of 42 graduates in Brown ended up in Top 20 TT position immediately upon graduation, I would like to comment that this is only a record of initial placement. It should be noted that even in Harvard, the initial placement for Top 20 TT is only 4 out of ~60. In this way, the rate between Brown and Harvard (top 6) is roughly 5% vs 7% (which is minimal difference). Also following your method looking at the initial placement of Princeton (which is widely accepted as having the best placement rate), their initial TT placement rate for top 20 is only 5 out of roughly 60 (that even includes a soc-joint appointment!), which is 8.5%. That says, the difference in top 20 TT placement rate is only 3.5%! Of course one can argue that 5% vs 8.5% is a 70% increase, however with the sensitiveness of data, the 70% is rather meaningless.

 

P.S. I found someone gave me a bad reputation on my previous post simply because he/she did not "like" my contents. A bad reputation is generally given to an unhelpful answer or malicious content, which is against the community standards of intellectual exchange. It looked like I really broke that person's heart by saying Top 10 placement is not necessarily better.

        While I really don't care someone pressing that red button under my comments, I would like to say that is exactly an example of how you will see a few of your peers being incapable of communicate well, even at some finest programs in this country. I never want to start a fight, nor I use any offensive words in my comments. Though, I got really annoyed this time. 

Congratulations on your Brown admission, @goofylemon. I applied there but got rejected. I think it is a wonderful program. 

For what it's worth I actually gave positive reputation to one of your previous posts even though I disagreed. I totally understand your position and agree to disagree. But for me, I would only prefer Brown to a Top-10 department if it would make me physically closer to my family and my girlfriend. I am an international student, will be thousands of km's away anyway, so probably not. If that Top-10 is less of a fit with my research interests, well, I can always adjust them.

Edited February 12, 2016 by notthatgood
Just found out how to tag.

[kelris]

12 minutes ago, any5 said:

Here: starry-eyed hopeful naive and excited 

There: jaded tired frustrated realistic experienced

The grass is always greener, my friends. And the grass is always brown.

Realistic and experienced are key. Tbh I feel the same toward goofy's comments, it's none of my business though and I think it's not our place to be influencing the decisions of each other. We all need to be talking to our current advisers and POIs or DGSs at the places we might go. None of us have the right answer for each other

[gingin6789]

Wow people talking behind our backs about how naive and blind we are.

Quelle f**king surprise. I mean we *are* blind because we don't have the experience they have. 

But yeah. It feels disturbingly reminiscent of the folks who told me I'm not gonna get anywhere ever since I dropped out of high school.

And I just respectfully went about my life and proved them wrong.

To folks like them, I'm not even supposed to be here, yet here I am.

Will I prove these guys wrong by going to the PhD program that fits me best instead of prioritizing ONLY rank?

I have no clue, but I know that there are people who actually support that decision, and they've made more difference than some anons on that forum have.

 

... and now instantly I wanna say "sorry for being so naive and kinda rude." But I'm just not in the mood for other rude people. Even if they are realistic and experienced.

I guess I shouldn't have even read that post >_O

Edited February 12, 2016 by gingin6789

[goofylemon]

1 minute ago, gingin6789 said:

Wow people talking behind our backs about how naive and blind we are.

Quelle f**king surprise. I mean we *are* blind because we don't have the experience they have. 

But yeah. It feels disturbingly reminiscent of the folks who told me I'm not gonna get anywhere ever since I dropped out of high school.

And I just respectfully went about my life and proved them wrong.

To folks like them, I'm not even supposed to be here, yet here I am.

Will I prove these guys wrong by going to the PhD program that fits me best instead of prioritizing rank?

I have no clue, but I know that there are people who actually support that decision, and they've made more difference than some anons on that forum have.

*shrugs* not today, satan.

@gingin6789   Second.  ****Hugs**** 

Sooner or later we will prove it.

[kelris]

 

3 minutes ago, gingin6789 said:

 

I know that there are people who actually support that decision, and they've made more difference than some anons on that forum have.

 

gingin I think this is key. checking in and weighing the options with the people who care about you and that you personally trust.

[goofylemon]

7 minutes ago, notthatgood said:

Congratulations on your Brown admission, @goofylemon. I applied there but got rejected. I think it is a wonderful program. 

For what it's worth I actually gave positive reputation to one of your previous posts even though I disagreed. I totally understand your position and agree to disagree. But for me, I would only prefer Brown to a Top-10 department if it would make me physically closer to my family and my girlfriend. I am an international student, will be thousands of km's away anyway, so probably not. If that Top-10 is less of a fit with my research interests, well, I can always adjust them.

I understood your position. To me, I have done extensive research in my fields of research and I am so reluctant to change.

I understand many people change their research interests, partly because they tailored them for their graduate program. I just want to say, I won't. I do sociology research because I **love** my fields. That's my passion. If there is any single higher-ranked program that combine family, social demography, urban and China that well, I would be happy to know.

[any5]

15 minutes ago, kelris said:

 

gingin I think this is key. checking in and weighing the options with the people who care about you and that you personally trust.

The decision itself is a distribution. On average, you are average (you will learn this when you take stats maybe;) But seriously you can be a 5 sigma star at a 25-50 school and blow everyone away. But on average you will be average. At a top 10 program on average your distribution is just better. You can be a 1 sigma achiever and place where you'd need to outperform by 5 stdevs below. Not that you can't - statistics say you CAN, but that on average you wont. But maybe you're not average. You might be below average. By definition some of us are going to be below average. It's safer to be below average at a top10 because they have a better distribution. These distributions aren't normal curves either, but who cares what shape they are. You're probably, on average, average. So am I. But some of us are going to be way above average.

In summary, if you are an average person aim high, the distrubution at the top will benefit you. If you are above average, you will likely succeed at places below (given the same opportunity set!). If you are below average and got into a top10, go there and cross your fingers.

The average person self-reports being above average. Keep this in mind. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by any5

[liesandfish]

Officially rejected from Harvard! Good luck to all of you! My hat is out of the sociology ring.  

[macadamia tea]

Harvard has been "unable to take favourable action" on my application. Pretty weird, I just wanted them to assess it and let me know whether I got a place.

[gingin6789]

@any5 Thanks for serving up some mindful truth! That's good, RESPECTFUL advice, and I do appreciate it.