Pick either of two: Rank or Location

[502845824]

For those who have been accepted/waitlisted near the top, what is more important for you, rank or location? 

 

For me, I'd say location. I'm stocked about Pitt and WashU, but Virginia has a perfect location...might have to bite the bullet and go there, jobs be damned.

[rising_star]

The literature folks are having this discussion right now too: 

FWIW, I picked location but that's because rankings were similar (and which was ranked higher depended on where you looked).

[dgswaim]

Probably location. That's mostly because I'm married and have a kid and they deserve happiness too.

[502845824]

1 minute ago, dgswaim said:

Probably location. That's mostly because I'm married and have a kid and they deserve happiness too.

Ah, that's tough. I'm in a long-term, long-distance relationship as it stands, and my SO and I would like to get engaged soon, so that's why location>rank for me.

[jjb919]

3 minutes ago, dgswaim said:

Probably location. That's mostly because I'm married and have a kid and they deserve happiness too.

I'm in the same boat. No kid (yet), but the whole process is being negotiated through the lens of going to the best ranked/fit school that is in an acceptable location for her. Fordham is a huge draw (should I be accepted off the wait list) because we wouldn't have to move; but Georgetown is a more ideal fit for me I think, and although not ideal for my wife she'd be willing to move. If I'm lucky enough to get to choose between the two, I'm not sure which way I'll go. But I'm getting ahead of myself, I have to get in first!

[pecado]

Those two options alone are not really the most important factors. I think it is more important to think about what your experience as a whole will be. But, anyway, the location is more important than the "rank", first because the rankings are very controversial and are probably not the best indicators of what university is really the best one FOR YOU.

The location should be considered, but for the right reasons, like what you will be able to live at there, according to YOUR OWN tastes and desires, even if they are not so deep and intellectual. In example, if you like Japanese girls and you get accepted at Tokyo, you will probably prefer to be in Tokyo than at somewhere else without Japanese girls. And certainly having cute girls near you is not the most important thing to consider, so you have to measure that factor with other important factors, like what kind of education you will get in what you want to study. But, in a hypothetical situation where the University of Tokyo has a programme almost as good as the other "top" university that admitted you, and their only difference is that they have Japanese girls, which one would win?

And all it comes to your own criteria, what you want, what you like, and what you dream or desire. It does not matter if the convention says that USA's schools are better, or if your family does not want you to relate with so many Japanese girls, or if your linguist brother thinks that the Japanese is not a very advanced language specific enough to express the deepest ideas of philosophy, or if your feminist sister thinks that is bad to like certain kind of women physically, or if your adviser will get mad at you because you rejected to cross the doors he opened for you (the admission to the "top" programme) with his recommendation letter, or any other stupid reason you can think of... The only thing that matters is what you want in your life and how that particular university will help you to get it.

Edited February 18, 2016 by pecado

[dgswaim]

24 minutes ago, pecado said:

Those two options alone are not really the most important factors. I think it is more important to think about what your experience as a whole will be. But, anyway, the location is more important than the "rank", first because the rankings are very controversial and are probably not the best indicators of what university is really the best one FOR YOU.

The location should be considered, but for the right reasons, like what you will be able to live at there, according to YOUR OWN tastes and desires, even if they are not so deep and intellectual. In example, if you like Japanese girls and you get accepted at Tokyo, you will probably prefer to be in Tokyo than at somewhere else without Japanese girls. And certainly having cute girls near you is not the most important thing to consider, so you have to measure that factor with other important factors, like what kind of education you will get in what you want to study. But, in a hypothetical situation where the University of Tokyo has a programme almost as good as the other "top" university that admitted you, and their only difference is that they have Japanese girls, which one would win?

And all it comes to your own criteria, what you want, what you like, and what you dream or desire. It does not matter if the convention says that USA's schools are better, or if your family does not want you to relate with so many Japanese girls, or if your linguist brother thinks that the Japanese is not a very advanced language specific enough to express the deepest ideas of philosophy, or if your feminist sister thinks that is bad to like certain kind of women physically, or if your adviser will get mad at you because you rejected to cross the doors he opened for you (the admission to the "top" programme) with his recommendation letter, or any other stupid reason you can think of... The only thing that matters is what you want in your life and how that particular university will help you to get it.

Some weird, oddly specific examples there.

[Neist]

50 minutes ago, dgswaim said:

Probably location. That's mostly because I'm married and have a kid and they deserve happiness too.

Same.

But then again, I only applied to programs that were in locations that worked for me and my family. That's one of the reasons why I've only applied to five programs. It took a lot of effort to reduce it down to these five programs, but they all "work" for me.

[dgswaim]

57 minutes ago, oldhatnewtricks said:

Ah, that's tough. I'm in a long-term, long-distance relationship as it stands, and my SO and I would like to get engaged soon, so that's why location>rank for me.

Not related: you should have called your WS paper "Dude, Where's My Mind?"

[frege-bombs]

 These are all good points. I thought I'd add some thoughts of my own, for whatever they might be worth. 

*If* ones goal is to get a job as a philosophy professor in the United States, then, all else equal, rank and perceived prestige of the department and faculty should play a large factor in ones decision. For better or for worse, philosophers tend to be elitist, and the impression of a job candidate's PhD granting institution and how well-known the people writing their letters of recommendation are go a long way in helping to cull very large job applicant pools. It perhaps ought not to be this way, but it's probably important to keep in mind that this is how things seem to operate currently.

Of course, all else is never equal, and job prospects have to be weighed amongst other factors -- family, finances, location, etc. The job market is so damn competitive, though, that it would be prudent of prospective students to investigate placement and the steps departments take to prepare their candidates for the market. Again, assuming you eventually want to secure an academic job. 

[dgswaim]

5 minutes ago, frege-bombs said:

For better or for worse  Because we're mostly all closet assholes, philosophers tend to be elitist

FTFY

[Siegfried42]

I am also in a long-term relationship and so location will be one important factor. Like others, I hope to attend the highest-ranked institution to which I'm admitted that is also in a good location for the both of us. Of course, fit between your interests and those of the department is crucial, given the way that will influence both the productiveness of your time there and the eventual quality of your dissertation. 

Assuming an acceptable location and a good fit for all acceptances, however, I would not discount ranking. While systems of ranking are inherently limited and cannot represent accurately the quality of the quality of the education you will get, pedigree, for better or worse, is enormously important in the academic job market. This is particularly true in philosophy, where there are so few jobs each year. If a career in academic philosophy is a serious goal, I would think very hard before turning down a PGR10 offer. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Siegfried42

[pecado]

It is very disappointing to find out that most here are choosing a school aiming to get a work in philosophy. Conventionally, this is what everyone else is supposed to do, but WE ARE PHILOSOPHERS, we do it for the love of wisdom.

 

[Siegfried42]

6 minutes ago, pecado said:

It is very disappointing to find out that most here are choosing a school aiming to get a work in philosophy. Conventionally, this is what everyone else is supposed to do, but WE ARE PHILOSOPHERS, we do it for the love of wisdom.

 

Or for Japanese girls, of course.

In all seriousness, I don't think anyone suggested their primary goal was to get academic employment. In fact, I would be perfectly happy with a job in another field (I am hoping to get a dual degree) and want to study philosophy not for the job prospects (<-- lol) but rather for the inherent value of philosophical inquiry. Thus, even if I end up at a non-academic job, I believe the Ph.D. in Philosophy will have enriched me. Nonetheless: good academic employment of course enables us to continue studying philosophy. I don't think that is in any way contrary to the love of wisdom.

[AgentScully]

Rank v location v really good funding?

 

[abisch]

I've also been considering this scenario: What if after 5-6 years of PhD study, I no longer want to be in academia? I think I might have a shot of getting into UNC, so I'm comparing UNC to Duke. UNC is ranked higher than Duke, but the name recognition from Duke might help me in the future if I try to find a job outside of teaching philosophy. 

[philosophe]

It's important to end up somewhere where you'll have good quality of life. I'd suggest you look at placement, which isn't factored into the gourmet report, and is arguably more important than rank. 

Edit: If there's a real chance you might ditch philosophy, I definitely think location and general prestige/name recognition should be your priority. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by philosophe

[MVSCZAR]

All the people in this thread talking about their long-term relationships... Keep rubbing it in, guys. 

 

For me, location and fit are more important than ranking, at this point. My whole life, I've heard how important prestige is to getting ahead, etc. etc. But I got this far going to a public university that's just half a step "up" from a community college, and I feel great about it. Plus, it's all about what you publish, and I want to be around people who aren't gonna be like, "Ew, that's not rigorous enough." or something if I decide to use The Cloud of Unknowing and Gerard Manley Hopkins in a paper. Location is really important because I'm all on that Socrates thing. You know, in the Phaedrus when Phaedrus is like, Socrates, come to the babbling brook with me (or whatever), and Socrates says something like, "I really prefer doing my philosophizing in Athens. Trees can't teach me what people can." Or something. I feel that way about big cities (NYC in particular). It's not like I haven't been abroad for large chunks of time, but I feed off of this city in an unhealthy way. Plus, 24/7 public transportation and $$ reasons are making me want to stay. 

[Cecinestpasunphilosophe]

16 minutes ago, MVSCZAR said:

All the people in this thread talking about their long-term relationships... Keep rubbing it in, guys. 

 

For me, location and fit are more important than ranking, at this point. My whole life, I've heard how important prestige is to getting ahead, etc. etc. But I got this far going to a public university that's just half a step "up" from a community college, and I feel great about it. Plus, it's all about what you publish, and I want to be around people who aren't gonna be like, "Ew, that's not rigorous enough." or something if I decide to use The Cloud of Unknowing and Gerard Manley Hopkins in a paper. Location is really important because I'm all on that Socrates thing. You know, in the Phaedrus when Phaedrus is like, Socrates, come to the babbling brook with me (or whatever), and Socrates says something like, "I really prefer doing my philosophizing in Athens. Trees can't teach me what people can." Or something. I feel that way about big cities (NYC in particular). It's not like I haven't been abroad for large chunks of time, but I feed off of this city in an unhealthy way. Plus, 24/7 public transportation and $$ reasons are making me want to stay. 

Each mortal thing does one thing and the same - deals out that being indoors each one dwells: Selves goes itself; myself it speaks and spells, crying what I do is me, for that I came!

It's one of the few poems I can recite by heart. So beautiful. 

It's so refreshing to find someone else who not only knows who Hopkins is (a rare enough thing in analytic circles, unfortunately), but also recognizes the philosophical import of his thought! I've always wanted the chance to investigate Hopkins' notions of inscape and instress in an academic setting. I often worry that I'll be dreaming about this for a long time to come, though...

[thatsjustsemantics]

Here's the rub, and I'm not trying to end the thread: as I understand it, it's impossible for you to know what it will be like attending one university over another and seeing through your course of study. It's impossible to know what it will be like because your course of study counts as a transformative experience (see L.A. Paul). The transformative experience, which you have not yet undergone, cannot be fairly evaluated in comparison to other potential transformative experiences, precisely because you have not yet undergone those experiences! It's lame because we're epistemically limited, but the risk keeps us young.

In my opinion, if I were lucky enough to have options between schools, I would choose fit and location over prestige. Over time, you'll just stop caring about the prestige stuff. What you'll really value is the great experiences you share with others in your cohort, and the great times you had practicing philosophy in a community setting -- but what makes or breaks your course of study will be just that: the quality of your community.

For instance, I just can't stand people who stress out really easily and, whether knowingly or unknowingly, take it out on others; I also can't stand childish one-upmanshipisms -- criticizing without a point or leading us somewhere constructive, for the sake of... well, I just don't know how people can be ignorant of how they belittle others constantly without feeling remorseful. But how in the hell can you predict whether you'll get along really well with your cohort or not?

Edited February 18, 2016 by thatsjustsemantics

[MVSCZAR]

49 minutes ago, Cecinestpasunphilosophe said:

Each mortal thing does one thing and the same - deals out that being indoors each one dwells: Selves goes itself; myself it speaks and spells, crying what I do is me, for that I came!

It's one of the few poems I can recite by heart. So beautiful. 

It's so refreshing to find someone else who not only knows who Hopkins is (a rare enough thing in analytic circles, unfortunately), but also recognizes the philosophical import of his thought! I've always wanted the chance to investigate Hopkins' notions of inscape and instress in an academic setting. I often worry that I'll be dreaming about this for a long time to come, though...

Ugh. He's the best. 

Glory be to God for dappled things. For skies of couple colored as a brinded cow.

And for Hopkins, too. Who makes my life better every day. :') 

 

 

Work on the paper. I'll work on one too. We'll reignite the fire. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by MVSCZAR
Got carried away with numbers "one two"

[dgswaim]

2 hours ago, AgentScully said:

Rank v location v really good funding?

 

I don't weigh funding that heavily unless it's really bad funding, in which case it's obviously a strike against. Two years ago I ended up turning down an MA program that I really liked because the funding was like, insultingly bad.

[pecado]

And talking about financial consideration, many of us will not be able to attend if we do not get a full scholarship, so it does not matter how much I love some school, its location, its programme, and its people, if I can not pay it, I can not go.

[D-NixRT]

Location is definitely most important to me. I only ended up lucking out with my dream schools being Madison and Milwaukee. I probably would have applied regardless of rank because I love Wisconsin and the faculty are focused in my primary philosophical interests. You gotta be happy where you're going!

[Kratistos]

This is really hard. Before I would have said rank all the way. But now I realized that fit is probably the most important factor. Find a school were you will succeed and have a great time. More importantly one that is supportive of you. I had wonderful experiences with professors who wanted me to succeed and made an effort for me to do great in their class.