PhD Fall 2018 Applicants

[NeuroImmunoNerd]

1 hour ago, cindyboop said:

Thanks for your response! Thank was nice of you! My bosses all know I am applying to PhD programs in the fall so I will most likely be leaving my position. I believe they will be open to writing me letter of recommendations, at least I hope. One of them did for my Masters program but that is in state and close enough so I can still work full time (well mostly). 

What programs have you looked into so far?

I like to think that your research mentors are truly there to help you and inevitably, to write you a strong letter of recommendation unless they say they don't know you well enough to provide that. I would try to have these conversations soon, in case someone on your list cannot provide you with a letter of recommendation.

I'm primarily interested in cellular and molecular neuroscience with a focus in neurodegenerative diseases, and I've found a few mentors at Baylor, UT: Houston, Texas A&M, University of Utah, University of Iowa, and Tulane with research interests that mesh really well with mine! 

[vaibhavpandey]

Hii, Thanks for starting the thread. 

Program of interest: Interdisciplinary studies, development studies, sociology

Schools you have looked at: I am open to US as well as UK schools but writing two different types of application will burn me out so still confused, but writing GRE for sure.

Number one worry about applying: Lack of research experience maybe (I have hardcore rural experience in tribal areas, 3 years). Also my switch from being a software engineer to social worker (This will raise some eyebrows I am sure)!!

keep sharing guys, you are awesome!! 

Edited April 21, 2017 by vaibhavpandey

[Katzenklavier]

Hi all! I'm in a weird place here and am just wondering about next steps. I would LOVE to hear thoughts or feedback. My situation is pretty unique.

I'm lucky enough to have just been accepted to the top-rated Occupational Therapy program in the country (Washington University in St. Louis). While completing my Anatomy & Physiology prerequisites for the program, I fell in love with neuroscience. I've now spent months reading about it, developing curiosity on the role of gut bacteria in producing serotonin...going through textbooks for fun.

At my program, I'll have the opportunity to participate in amazing neurorehabilitation research. I may even be able to do my own study and be 1st author. But I worry that I may someday discover that a Ph.D. in Neuroscience, to really get the chance to go in depth, was my passion all along.

So...does anybody think that having a Master's or a doctorate in Occupational Therapy would be valued by Ph.D. programs? Would having OT neuro research under my belt potentially compensate for a weaker GRE quant score? I'm fine with stats, but as I get older, my ability to regurgitate high school level math gets worse and worse. My verbal score of 169 and AW of 4.5 carried me to OT school, but my last quant score was less than 50th percentile (I know, right?). I also have a 4.0 in my science prereq's and a 3.7 GPA cumulative (plus post-bacc).

Thank you and best wishes to everyone applying!

 

 

 

[vallaboop]

On 4/21/2017 at 9:08 PM, Katzenklavier said:

Hi all! I'm in a weird place here and am just wondering about next steps. I would LOVE to hear thoughts or feedback. My situation is pretty unique.

I'm lucky enough to have just been accepted to the top-rated Occupational Therapy program in the country (Washington University in St. Louis). While completing my Anatomy & Physiology prerequisites for the program, I fell in love with neuroscience. I've now spent months reading about it, developing curiosity on the role of gut bacteria in producing serotonin...going through textbooks for fun.

At my program, I'll have the opportunity to participate in amazing neurorehabilitation research. I may even be able to do my own study and be 1st author. But I worry that I may someday discover that a Ph.D. in Neuroscience, to really get the chance to go in depth, was my passion all along.

So...does anybody think that having a Master's or a doctorate in Occupational Therapy would be valued by Ph.D. programs? Would having OT neuro research under my belt potentially compensate for a weaker GRE quant score? I'm fine with stats, but as I get older, my ability to regurgitate high school level math gets worse and worse. My verbal score of 169 and AW of 4.5 carried me to OT school, but my last quant score was less than 50th percentile (I know, right?). I also have a 4.0 in my science prereq's and a 3.7 GPA cumulative (plus post-bacc).

Thank you and best wishes to everyone applying!

 

 

 

Hi Katzenklavier, 

It's really tough to say. PhD programs are extremely difficult and each program is unique. If you do well in the OT program, this will show that you can do well in graduate school. Having neuro research is definitely a plus. Is this a specific facet of neuroscience you're interested? For example, I'm interested in behavioral neuroscience and researching serious mental illness and neurodegenerative diseases. I've been garnering research experience within the field of psychiatric research and I am currently in a masters program for clinical psychology to help with my chances of getting accepted into a behavioral neuro program. If you believe that the OT program you are in has a strong enough science core for what you are interested in pursuing than this might be helpful. If you do not think that this will strengthen your chances of getting into a neuro PhD program than I strongly recommend sitting down and thinking about what you truly want to do. A science PhD program is not for the faint of heart so you should not make your decision lightly. In addition, I recommend getting a GRE quant book and studying up to retake the GRE. Hope this helps!

[yash13177]

On 4/22/2017 at 9:08 AM, Katzenklavier said:

Hi all! I'm in a weird place here and am just wondering about next steps. I would LOVE to hear thoughts or feedback. My situation is pretty unique.

I'm lucky enough to have just been accepted to the top-rated Occupational Therapy program in the country (Washington University in St. Louis). While completing my Anatomy & Physiology prerequisites for the program, I fell in love with neuroscience. I've now spent months reading about it, developing curiosity on the role of gut bacteria in producing serotonin...going through textbooks for fun.

At my program, I'll have the opportunity to participate in amazing neurorehabilitation research. I may even be able to do my own study and be 1st author. But I worry that I may someday discover that a Ph.D. in Neuroscience, to really get the chance to go in depth, was my passion all along.

So...does anybody think that having a Master's or a doctorate in Occupational Therapy would be valued by Ph.D. programs? Would having OT neuro research under my belt potentially compensate for a weaker GRE quant score? I'm fine with stats, but as I get older, my ability to regurgitate high school level math gets worse and worse. My verbal score of 169 and AW of 4.5 carried me to OT school, but my last quant score was less than 50th percentile (I know, right?). I also have a 4.0 in my science prereq's and a 3.7 GPA cumulative (plus post-bacc).

Thank you and best wishes to everyone applying!

 

 

 

Katzenklavier,

In my opinion the only catch in applying to a Ph.D. program is justifying why you want to get a Ph.D. after your OT program. I think your time doing neuro-rehabilitation research during your OT program will be able to tell you whether obtaining a Ph.D. is something you want to do!

As far as GRE scores...Honestly...everyone I've talked to say that they are just a formality unless you do badly. But for some schools, if you have a great GPA, research experience and a publication - that shines a lot brighter than a GRE score. So, given your quantitative score, I would re-take it if you have the time and money to do so. I think that spending the money on re-taking the GRE to get a higher score will save you the money in applying a second round! But ultimately, this depends on the program you apply to. I would suggest looking at their average applicant score or even try to talk to someone at the school before signing up to re-take it.

I hope that answers some of your questions, and if you do well in your OT program and then decide to continue to a Ph.D. after your research experience - I think that just makes you stand out as an applicant!

[clinpsych55]

Hi all! 

I've been lurking for a while and will finally be applying this year for the 2018 admission cycle. I'm at a conference this weekend and attended a talk by APA about grad school admissions. I wasn't aware of this and am sure I'm not the only one, so I wanted to give everyone a heads up that they'll be using a centralized application website this year (akin to the Common App for undergrad) called PsyCas. The universal parts of the application, like applicant information, transcripts, etc., will only need to be entered once, and each school also has a custom section for its individualized materials. 

I'm fairly certain this is the first year that applications are being submitted this way. Half of me is relieved that this should make the process less time-consuming, but half of me is wary of possible technological issues that inevitably come with piloting a program like this for the first time. They also noted that schools have to opt in to using the program, so it's not guaranteed that it will be completely universal.

What are everyone's thoughts? 

[8BitJourney]

8 minutes ago, clinpsych55 said:

Hi all! 

I've been lurking for a while and will finally be applying this year for the 2018 admission cycle. I'm at a conference this weekend and attended a talk by APA about grad school admissions. I wasn't aware of this and am sure I'm not the only one, so I wanted to give everyone a heads up that they'll be using a centralized application website this year (akin to the Common App for undergrad) called PsyCas. The universal parts of the application, like applicant information, transcripts, etc., will only need to be entered once, and each school also has a custom section for its individualized materials. 

I'm fairly certain this is the first year that applications are being submitted this way. Half of me is relieved that this should make the process less time-consuming, but half of me is wary of possible technological issues that inevitably come with piloting a program like this for the first time. They also noted that schools have to opt in to using the program, so it's not guaranteed that it will be completely universal.

What are everyone's thoughts? 

*flips table* Are you serious?!! Bout dang time!! Medical schools have has that for years and my med friends do not understand why psychology still has individual apps.

[01848p]

On 4/19/2017 at 10:43 AM, Becks_Psych said:

Did you try or have you heard anything about the online Kaplan courses? I'm in-between Magoosh and Kaplan. 

As someone who's used Kaplan several times over the past decade, I can say it's completely useless. I didn't even bother trying to use it for the GRE. The value of Kaplan is in the access to practice tests and materials you are granted. The class itself is a waste of money and time - I took the class for the MCAT back when I was still premed, and the 'test-taking skills' they taught us in that course were the exact same that I had been taught 5 years prior in the ACT class I took. The EXACT same. It's not worth it. 

[01848p]

On 3/21/2017 at 11:27 AM, cindyboop said:

Anyone else already freaking out about applying to PhD programs Fall 2018? I thought I might start a thread for us all to due a little venting and give each other advice.  

Let's all start by introducing ourselves!

Program of interest: Behavioral Neuroscience

Schools you have looked at: I feel like I've looked at almost every school that has a behavioral neuroscience program. I'm interested in programs in Washington, Oregon, Colorado and Massachusetts

Number one worry about applying: My GPA was on the low side after finishing my undergrad and I had a lack of research experience. I've been trying to make up for that by working as a research assistant and getting my masters but I'm worried that won't be enough...

Hey! I applied this round but wanted to comment because your worry really stood out to me. It was the same one I had. I was pre-med throughout the entirety of undergrad, for which my GPA suffered incredibly. I happened to randomly pick up a major in psychology along the way, though, so fortunately my in-major GPA was okay. If that's not the case for you, I'd say you might want to take the psych GRE just to show that you are competent in general psychology. As for lack of research experience....I had that too. It was a huge worry of mine. Like I said, I was pre-med and was doing cancer bio research (like as a work-study position so not really doing anything fruitful), then decided fall of my final year of undergrad I wanted to go to grad school in psych. I managed to find an RA position for my year off and I think that helped my application. I'm sure having an MA/MS under your belt will be even better.

But mostly I wanted to reassure you by saying you're doing everything you should be doing at this point, and there's other parts of your application that are equally important. Like the statement of purpose - incredibly important. From what I can gather, mine was kind of untraditional, actually, because I also included a bit of my personal background in the essay because it was important to why I want to study my particular research interests. My point is, I know everywhere on the internet tells you NOT to do that, but don't worry about it if it happens. Of course, it needs to make sense since you often only have 2 pages (or sometimes a word limit! one wanted 700 words or less!) 

Last - try not to confine yourself solely to programs in your particular field of interest. If I had done this, I think I would not have had much success. The way I went about picking programs to apply to was by researching several schools (like 30), and looking at programs of even the slightest bit of interest at each school. Looking at the faculty in every single one of those programs in every single one of those schools. And then making a list of faculty at each of those schools in each of those departments who I'd be interested in working with. I eventually narrowed it down to 11, with 1 to 2 POIs in each school: dev psych, HDFS, ed psych, social psych, and even one personality psych. This really worked to my advantage and actually I was even asked about it in interviews (they always responded positively to my answer!)

[Monisha]

Hello everyone! 

Iam looking to apply for fall 2018 as well! I am interested in gender and sexuality but i dont know where i would fit in with my Masters in clinical psychology and 2 year work experience in an non-profit with focus on Dementia care...which is my biggest concern. I havent seen too many people work in this area in academia as well so i dont know where to start! Any suggestions are welcome! Colleges i have found to have some focus on gender and sexuality are Rutgers, New Jersey and Teachers College Columbia, NY for now. Anyone know of any schools that have professors that focus on these topics? 

[vallaboop]

11 hours ago, 01848p said:

Hey! I applied this round but wanted to comment because your worry really stood out to me. It was the same one I had. I was pre-med throughout the entirety of undergrad, for which my GPA suffered incredibly. I happened to randomly pick up a major in psychology along the way, though, so fortunately my in-major GPA was okay. If that's not the case for you, I'd say you might want to take the psych GRE just to show that you are competent in general psychology. As for lack of research experience....I had that too. It was a huge worry of mine. Like I said, I was pre-med and was doing cancer bio research (like as a work-study position so not really doing anything fruitful), then decided fall of my final year of undergrad I wanted to go to grad school in psych. I managed to find an RA position for my year off and I think that helped my application. I'm sure having an MA/MS under your belt will be even better.

But mostly I wanted to reassure you by saying you're doing everything you should be doing at this point, and there's other parts of your application that are equally important. Like the statement of purpose - incredibly important. From what I can gather, mine was kind of untraditional, actually, because I also included a bit of my personal background in the essay because it was important to why I want to study my particular research interests. My point is, I know everywhere on the internet tells you NOT to do that, but don't worry about it if it happens. Of course, it needs to make sense since you often only have 2 pages (or sometimes a word limit! one wanted 700 words or less!) 

Last - try not to confine yourself solely to programs in your particular field of interest. If I had done this, I think I would not have had much success. The way I went about picking programs to apply to was by researching several schools (like 30), and looking at programs of even the slightest bit of interest at each school. Looking at the faculty in every single one of those programs in every single one of those schools. And then making a list of faculty at each of those schools in each of those departments who I'd be interested in working with. I eventually narrowed it down to 11, with 1 to 2 POIs in each school: dev psych, HDFS, ed psych, social psych, and even one personality psych. This really worked to my advantage and actually I was even asked about it in interviews (they always responded positively to my answer!)

Your response was very helpful, thank you! This makes me feel better. I will try not to be so narrow in my search, that is really great advice! As for the statement of purpose, I've put this in the back of my mind and almost forgot about it. I should start working on these ASAP. I agree with you on the personal background. I think if it's relevant and helps explain how you got to where you are and what has happened along the way then I think it would be beneficial. At least, I hope. Thanks again!

[01848p]

On 5/1/2017 at 9:54 AM, cindyboop said:

Your response was very helpful, thank you! This makes me feel better. I will try not to be so narrow in my search, that is really great advice! As for the statement of purpose, I've put this in the back of my mind and almost forgot about it. I should start working on these ASAP. I agree with you on the personal background. I think if it's relevant and helps explain how you got to where you are and what has happened along the way then I think it would be beneficial. At least, I hope. Thanks again!

No problem! If you ever have any questions don't hesitate to reach out

[dancedementia]

On 4/30/2017 at 1:01 PM, clinpsych55 said:

they'll be using a centralized application website this year (akin to the Common App for undergrad) called PsyCas

A few schools were already using PsyCAS last year, but I'm glad that they're finally making it standard. At least, I hope it will be standard across the board. I am tired of having to order my GRE scores 10 times at $30 a pop......

EDIT: Just popped on PsyCAS to check. The only schools taking apps via that platform thus far for 2018 matriculation are Mercer, Stanford/PGSP, PCOM, and a ton of Argosy's. Definitely not standard yet.

Edited May 3, 2017 by dancedementia

[megaspark]

I'm so happy I found this thread! Unfortunately I didn't get into any programs so I'll be going at it again for next year. I know how common it is to not get in on the first round but it really is discouraging.

Program of interest: clinical psychology focusing on at-risk youth/juvenile offenders

Schools you have looked at: Mainly CA schools: Pepperdine, Palo Alto, California Lutheran but also Denver and Washington.

Number one worry about applying: Pretty bad GRE score for math. I went all out with tutoring and was only able to raise it by 2 points. I also found out that clinical psych programs don't consider ABA to be clinical experience so I'm scrambling to find experience that they will rank higher.

[Psych_Law]

2 hours ago, megaspark said:

I'm so happy I found this thread! Unfortunately I didn't get into any programs so I'll be going at it again for next year. I know how common it is to not get in on the first round but it really is discouraging.

Program of interest: clinical psychology focusing on at-risk youth/juvenile offenders

Schools you have looked at: Mainly CA schools: Pepperdine, Palo Alto, California Lutheran but also Denver and Washington.

Number one worry about applying: Pretty bad GRE score for math. I went all out with tutoring and was only able to raise it by 2 points. I also found out that clinical psych programs don't consider ABA to be clinical experience so I'm scrambling to find experience that they will rank higher.

Are you trying to stay on the west coast? I know of a professor in DC who works within that area of study (it is developmental psych though and not clinical). 

[ellieotter]

13 hours ago, megaspark said:

I'm so happy I found this thread! Unfortunately I didn't get into any programs so I'll be going at it again for next year. I know how common it is to not get in on the first round but it really is discouraging.

Program of interest: clinical psychology focusing on at-risk youth/juvenile offenders

Schools you have looked at: Mainly CA schools: Pepperdine, Palo Alto, California Lutheran but also Denver and Washington.

Number one worry about applying: Pretty bad GRE score for math. I went all out with tutoring and was only able to raise it by 2 points. I also found out that clinical psych programs don't consider ABA to be clinical experience so I'm scrambling to find experience that they will rank higher.

My area of interest is very similar to yours so after going through the app season this year I would advise that you may want to also look into Counseling Psych PhD programs if you're open to it. I ended up choosing a counseling over a clinical program because there were more practicum opportunities to work with juvenile sexual offenders (part of my area of interest). Just be prepared that it is very hard to find any programs that work with juvenile offenders since most focus on adults.

I know you've narrowed it to mostly CA schools but you may also look at Kansas University & Alabama's Clinical-Child Psych programs. Both are extremely competitive but have people who do at risk juvenile stuff. PM if you have any questions or want some more info on schools to look into or stay away from!

[tanm55]

Applied for PHD programs this cycle, got some interviews, but didn't get in. I'm going to do a 2 year masters program instead and then am thinking of reapplying right after that. What are people's thoughts on re-applying to some of the same POIs in that future cycle that I applied to this cycle? Is that frowned upon? 

Also, I'll be doing research with a professor in her lab at my masters program. If I end up really liking her/the lab, could I technically apply for the PHD to work with her and stay at the institution for the PHD? 

Just looking for opinions! Thanks!

[vallaboop]

4 hours ago, tanm55 said:

Applied for PHD programs this cycle, got some interviews, but didn't get in. I'm going to do a 2 year masters program instead and then am thinking of reapplying right after that. What are people's thoughts on re-applying to some of the same POIs in that future cycle that I applied to this cycle? Is that frowned upon? 

Also, I'll be doing research with a professor in her lab at my masters program. If I end up really liking her/the lab, could I technically apply for the PHD to work with her and stay at the institution for the PHD? 

Just looking for opinions! Thanks!

I think that if your research interests are still in line with the POIs at the programs you already applied to there shouldn't be a problem reapplying. For a lot of people it's really difficult to get into a PhD program right after college. Getting more experience and showing you can excel in a master's program is really helpful (that's what I'm currently doing as well, I just finished my first year of my master's). 

It's a little hard to answer your second question because I don't know which school you are going to be attending for your master's and what their program is like. It would probably be easiest to do your qualifying exams to become a PhD candidate at the school you will already be attending. But again, I'm unsure how the school your attending works.

[Psychologyandpizza]

On 5/1/2017 at 7:05 AM, Monisha said:

Hello everyone! 

Iam looking to apply for fall 2018 as well! I am interested in gender and sexuality but i dont know where i would fit in with my Masters in clinical psychology and 2 year work experience in an non-profit with focus on Dementia care...which is my biggest concern. I havent seen too many people work in this area in academia as well so i dont know where to start! Any suggestions are welcome! Colleges i have found to have some focus on gender and sexuality are Rutgers, New Jersey and Teachers College Columbia, NY for now. Anyone know of any schools that have professors that focus on these topics? 

Hi! 

I'm planning to apply to phd programs in clinical and/or counseling with an emphasis in gender and sexuality studies! There aren't many programs that focus on this so I've been trying to find individual profs who are somewhat related to what I'm interested in. So excited to see someone else in this field! 

 

Im also planning to apply to teachers college Columbia! Good luck! Check out UW Madison if you're at all interested in counseling psychology because they have a few you may be interested in. 

[01848p]

On 5/1/2017 at 8:05 AM, Monisha said:

Hello everyone! 

Iam looking to apply for fall 2018 as well! I am interested in gender and sexuality but i dont know where i would fit in with my Masters in clinical psychology and 2 year work experience in an non-profit with focus on Dementia care...which is my biggest concern. I havent seen too many people work in this area in academia as well so i dont know where to start! Any suggestions are welcome! Colleges i have found to have some focus on gender and sexuality are Rutgers, New Jersey and Teachers College Columbia, NY for now. Anyone know of any schools that have professors that focus on these topics? 

I don't know if clinical/counseling psychology are different but in my experience it doesn't matter too much if your experiences prior to grad school aren't perfectly lined up with your research interests, as long as you can figure out how to frame them in terms of valuable skills learned. If you aren't looking exclusively for clinical/counseling programs, University of Michigan has a great program in Psychology and Women's Studies, as well as one in Gender and Feminist Psychology. U-M is one of the top places to be for psychology, as I'm sure you know. Another option could be applying to their Clinical Science program and then being co-advised by a faculty member in one of those other areas.

Edited May 7, 2017 by 01848p

[NeisserThanILook]

On 5/5/2017 at 8:16 AM, tanm55 said:

Applied for PHD programs this cycle, got some interviews, but didn't get in. I'm going to do a 2 year masters program instead and then am thinking of reapplying right after that. What are people's thoughts on re-applying to some of the same POIs in that future cycle that I applied to this cycle? Is that frowned upon? 

Also, I'll be doing research with a professor in her lab at my masters program. If I end up really liking her/the lab, could I technically apply for the PHD to work with her and stay at the institution for the PHD? 

Just looking for opinions! Thanks!

Hi! After I received a rejection from one of my POIs this year, I emailed him to ask if he'd be willing to look over my application in the future and he said he'd be more than happy to. I also heard the same thing from another POI who did give me an offer, which I declined in lieu of a gap year position (although this was a pretty unique situation). Not sure how much that generalizes to other POIs, but I think most are more than willing to have someone reapply, especially if they were a good enough candidate to make it to interview the first time around! I'm also hoping to apply to work with one of the POIs I'll be working with during my gap year(s) and they didn't have a problem with it (some even thought it was preferable), but I made sure to be up front about it so they know my intentions beforehand. Individual POIs/programs have different opinions about taking their own students, but I think in general they just want to take on whomever they believe to be the best student regardless of their history with the POI/program!

[Psychapplica]

I'm applying this year as well- I've applied more than once ? But I'm not giving up and I'm not settling! I've come really close. The last cycle I was waitlisted, but a spot did not open up (it's mid may I am assuming a spot will not open). I need to reach out to my reference writers and admit defeat again and ask for their help... again. I hate this part! Does anyone else? Any advice? 

[vallaboop]

3 hours ago, Psychapplica said:

I'm applying this year as well- I've applied more than once ? But I'm not giving up and I'm not settling! I've come really close. The last cycle I was waitlisted, but a spot did not open up (it's mid may I am assuming a spot will not open). I need to reach out to my reference writers and admit defeat again and ask for their help... again. I hate this part! Does anyone else? Any advice? 

It is a bummer but I think if you tell them how passionate you are then I'm sure they would be more than happy to write you another rec (or reuse the same one). Don't let that part hold you back!

[Psychapplica]

20 hours ago, cindyboop said:

It is a bummer but I think if you tell them how passionate you are then I'm sure they would be more than happy to write you another rec (or reuse the same one). Don't let that part hold you back!

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm doing everything I can to strengthen my application. This is my 3rd round. This part is always the hardest for me. Going back for my LOR's

[vallaboop]

1 hour ago, Psychapplica said:

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm doing everything I can to strengthen my application. This is my 3rd round. This part is always the hardest for me. Going back for my LOR's

I know how you feel, I've had quite the bumpy road myself. I applied to neuroscience PhD programs my senior year of college with very minimal research experience, no posters or paper publications and not the best GRE scores or GPA. I was discouraged when I got rejected, I took the semester off, braved it and asked for new LOR to apply to a neuroscience master's program. I got accepted and I was thrilled. However, life being the way it was I had to leave after a semester (even though I had a stellar GPA). I was so upset I didn't know what to do with myself. I finally got a research assistant job and applied to a clinical psychology masters program. I've just finished my first year and I'm ready to try to apply to PhD programs again (this time more specialized and hopefully more prepared). Everyone has their own story and I believe that if your story shows that you are passionate (and I believe that you are with your 3rd attempt at applying) then your LOR writers will have no problem helping you out. I wish you the best of luck, third times the charm!

Edited May 16, 2017 by cindyboop