Very low GRE scores

[deutsch1997bw]

According to statistics published by the University of Minnesota's Department of Political Science, it has accepted students in recent years who had quantitative GRE scores in the 130-150 range. Minnesota's PhD program is ranked #24 according to USNWR. Why do you think individuals with such low scores are accepted to the program? How common is this more generally?

[guest56436]

Broadly speaking, there is an applicant (or multiple) every cycle that gets into programs with a low GRE quant score. This happens all the time, even at top institutions. Put yourself in the shoes of an adcomm member, if you had an application in front of you that was stellar in virtually every way except for a low GRE score, would you consider admitting that person? The answer is most certainly yes.

GRE, prestige of undergrad/masters, and GPA are all cutoff factors, but they do not necessarily sink an otherwise stellar application. 

[samman1994]

Not in poli sci, but this practice is common in every subject. One thing to keep in mind, many departments are looking less and less seriously at GRE scores with some departments removing them entirely (I think at Minnessota the astronomy department doesn't even accept it anymore). Research and work experience (in your field) is looked upon much more highly than the GRE. So it comes down to the value of each object in an application. Work experience in the field, LOR, GRE, and GPA are not all on the same level.

Storytime:

I knew a guy who barely got by with his undergrad at my local university. He started his own business, and started making quite a bit of money and had a very successful business. He wanted to go back to school though (his business basically become self-sufficient), and wanted to go to Harvard. His undergrad GPA was a 2.1, and from my knowledge he never even took the GRE (he probably didn't do well though if he did, he wasn't fond of studying, hated anything math that wasn't stats, and wasn't amazing in english). He got into Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and Duke. From what he told me (now that he's there), if you have a successful high grossing business, then GPA, GRE, LOR, none of that matters to them. You just contact the right people there, they look at your business and Linkden, and you're in. 

Now I'm not saying the story above is common, but just trying to demonstrate every application is different, and thus, the weight of each portion of the application is different. For some applications, the GRE may be a deal breaker, for others, the GRE doesn't mean anything. 

[deutsch1997bw]

On 11/5/2017 at 10:57 AM, Comparativist said:

Broadly speaking, there is an applicant (or multiple) every cycle that gets into programs with a low GRE quant score. This happens all the time, even at top institutions. Put yourself in the shoes of an adcomm member, if you had an application in front of you that was stellar in virtually every way except for a low GRE score, would you consider admitting that person? The answer is most certainly yes.

GRE, prestige of undergrad/masters, and GPA are all cutoff factors, but they do not necessarily sink an otherwise stellar application. 

Thanks for the response. I'm curious, do you think this means that Minnesota, for example, looks at all applications in their entirety right away, rather than weeding out applicants? If they didn't look at entire applications, I don't know how someone with such a low score would even make the first cut.

[csantamir]

My GRE scores are still quite low even after retaking the test, but I’m not applying to top 25 programs. I hope adcoms realize that older applicants will not do as well as younger applicants on standardized tests, and let us compensate that with professional experience.

[CarefreeWritingsontheWall]

I got into more than one top 3 with a 152 in Q - significantly below the averages and thresholds posted on most program websites. Does your file need to compensate for that? Absolutely but it is possible. 

[csantamir]

2 hours ago, CarefreeWritingsontheWall said:

I got into more than one top 3 with a 152 in Q - significantly below the averages and thresholds posted on most program websites. Does your file need to compensate for that? Absolutely but it is possible. 

I got a 151 in quant after months of studying and doing practice tests. This is very encouraging.

[firefoxquantum]

41 minutes ago, csantamir said:

I got a 151 in quant after months of studying and doing practice tests. This is very encouraging.

I got a 158Q, but I'm trying to get into STEM, so I hope things play out well. Good luck to you!

[CandyCanes]

Does anyone else feel like after a while, studying doesn't even help your GRE score anymore? I don't know why people say it's an easy test...

[Applicantsocio]

11 hours ago, CandyCanes said:

Does anyone else feel like after a while, studying doesn't even help your GRE score anymore? I don't know why people say it's an easy test...

I am an international student. Though my verbal and quant scores are above 90th percentile, respectively, my analytical writing score is just 4.0. I have never reached to even 4.5. And, I am worried about my poor AW score. 

[csantamir]

1 hour ago, Applicantsocio said:

I am an international student. Though my verbal and quant scores are above 90th percentile, respectively, my analytical writing score is just 4.0. I have never reached to even 4.5. And, I am worried about my poor AW score. 

To be completely honest, I think the test is utterly useless. I’ve been a journalist and editor for 15 years and I got a 4.0. Not to mention the math of course. My point is that standardized testing in my opinion is just a way of screening applicants, but it doesn’t measure your true skills. If my low GRE scores prevent me from getting into a funded program, so be it, life moves on. 

[CandyCanes]

56 minutes ago, csantamir said:

To be completely honest, I think the test is utterly useless. I’ve been a journalist and editor for 15 years and I got a 4.0. Not to mention the math of course. My point is that standardized testing in my opinion is just a way of screening applicants, but it doesn’t measure your true skills. If my low GRE scores prevent me from getting into a funded program, so be it, life moves on. 

I felt like no matter how much I prepped for the verbal and (especially) math sections, my score just sort of plateaued after a while and there was no real way to increase it more. Did you feel the same?

[csantamir]

1 hour ago, CandyCanes said:

I felt like no matter how much I prepped for the verbal and (especially) math sections, my score just sort of plateaued after a while and there was no real way to increase it more. Did you feel the same?

Yup. And then my final quant score was even lower than on the zillion practice tests I took.

[SerenityNow!]

7 hours ago, csantamir said:

To be completely honest, I think the test is utterly useless. I’ve been a journalist and editor for 15 years and I got a 4.0. Not to mention the math of course. My point is that standardized testing in my opinion is just a way of screening applicants, but it doesn’t measure your true skills. If my low GRE scores prevent me from getting into a funded program, so be it, life moves on. 

I agree - my verbal score ended up being higher than my quant score even though I haven't taken an English class since high school and have taken graduate level courses in engineering and math.

I spoke with a mentor who used to chair admissions committee for my school's political science and public policy PhD programs and he said that he doesn't look at GRE scores unless they are perfect and in that case he is impressed or if they are pretty low like sub 140, in which case they need an exemption from the university graduate school to admit the student but apparently these are given pretty freely so even then that isn't a huge issue. He said that they only keep the GRE as a requirement all the other political science PhD programs around them in the rankings require it. He also said that there is always one professor on the committee who places a lot of stock on GRE scores but that everyone else is more in line with his thinking. For reference this is for a program in the 15-30 range of schools.

[skhann]

@SerenityNow! Any chance getting to know the name of the school?

[SerenityNow!]

@skhann Hi! I wont say the name of school but it is one of the Big 10 if that is any help? I got the feeling from my conversation with him that this is a relatively commonly held position though.

[ltr317]

8 hours ago, csantamir said:

Yup. And then my final quant score was even lower than on the zillion practice tests I took.

Amen!  My verbal score was lower than any of the practice tests I took.  It was probably due to eye fatigue from concentrating so hard because I scored much worse on my second verbal section by guessing before the three-quarter point as my brain was no longer digesting the passages, words, and answers.  In any case, the outcome was the same as you.

Edited January 17, 2018 by ltr317

[deutsch1997bw]

25 minutes ago, SerenityNow! said:

@skhann Hi! I wont say the name of school but it is one of the Big 10 if that is any help? I got the feeling from my conversation with him that this is a relatively commonly held position though.

I can second this. I had an interview with a Big 10 school yesterday. While I did not get the impression that the GRE score is unimportant, it certainly is not the most important aspect of the application process.

[CandyCanes]

38 minutes ago, ltr317 said:

Amen!  My verbal score was lower than any of the practice tests I took.  It was probably due to eye fatigue from concentrating so hard because I scored much worse on my second verbal section by guessing before the three-quarter point as my brain was no longer digesting the passages, words, and answers.  In any case, the outcome was the same as you.

So is there even any way to study for the GRE past a certain point?

 

25 minutes ago, deutsch1997bw said:

I can second this. I had an interview with a Big 10 school yesterday. While I did not get the impression that the GRE score is unimportant, it certainly is not the most important aspect of the application process.

Would you say it's more or less important than the personal statement?

[deutsch1997bw]

3 minutes ago, CandyCanes said:

So is there even any way to study for the GRE past a certain point?

Let me provide some context here. Both my verbal and writing scores were above the 90th percentile, but my quantitative score was quite low. However, I have taken courses in quantitative methodology. I think the score matters more if you are applying without a quantitative background. To answer your question specifically, I studied three months for the GRE before my first attempt. I think it's possible to study too much for the test, yes. 

 

6 minutes ago, CandyCanes said:

Would you say it's more or less important than the personal statement?

I think that it is way less important than the statement of purpose. Again, to provide context, I spent several months writing my statement, and by the time I began to submit applications it had been reviewed several times by two trusted advisers. I think my fit with the department, as illustrated in my statement, is what really got me past the "first cut." Note that I met all the other standard benchmarks, though (e.g., strong writing sample, conference presentations, high GPA, strong letters, etc.). 

[CandyCanes]

10 minutes ago, deutsch1997bw said:

Let me provide some context here. Both my verbal and writing scores were above the 90th percentile, but my quantitative score was quite low. However, I have taken courses in quantitative methodology. I think the score matters more if you are applying without a quantitative background. To answer your question specifically, I studied three months for the GRE before my first attempt. I think it's possible to study too much for the test, yes. 

 

I think that it is way less important than the statement of purpose. Again, to provide context, I spent several months writing my statement, and by the time I began to submit applications it had been reviewed several times by two trusted advisers. I think my fit with the department, as illustrated in my statement, is what really got me past the "first cut." Note that I met all the other standard benchmarks, though (e.g., strong writing sample, conference presentations, high GPA, strong letters, etc.). 

Did you study for the GRE and work the statement full-time, or did you also have a full-time job?

 

 

[deutsch1997bw]

I was in Western Europe this past summer taking classes full-time. I began working on my statement in June and finished working on it in October. I didn't really study for the GRE while abroad.

Edited January 17, 2018 by deutsch1997bw

[csantamir]

5 hours ago, SerenityNow! said:

I agree - my verbal score ended up being higher than my quant score even though I haven't taken an English class since high school and have taken graduate level courses in engineering and math.

I spoke with a mentor who used to chair admissions committee for my school's political science and public policy PhD programs and he said that he doesn't look at GRE scores unless they are perfect and in that case he is impressed or if they are pretty low like sub 140, in which case they need an exemption from the university graduate school to admit the student but apparently these are given pretty freely so even then that isn't a huge issue. He said that they only keep the GRE as a requirement all the other political science PhD programs around them in the rankings require it. He also said that there is always one professor on the committee who places a lot of stock on GRE scores but that everyone else is more in line with his thinking. For reference this is for a program in the 15-30 range of schools.

Very encouraging, thank you for sharing

[csantamir]

2 hours ago, ltr317 said:

Amen!  My verbal score was lower than any of the practice tests I took.  It was probably due to eye fatigue from concentrating so hard because I scored much worse on my second verbal section by guessing before the three-quarter point as my brain was no longer digesting the passages, words, and answers.  In any case, the outcome was the same as you.

Definitely. And I was working full-time too when I was preparing for the test. Overall took 4-5 months, for a very low quant score.

[ltr317]

1 hour ago, CandyCanes said:

So is there even any way to study for the GRE past a certain point?

 

Would you say it's more or less important than the personal statement?

I think that depends on the individual, aptitude for standardized tests, and the circumstances.  In general for those who are not great test takers of this type, I believe one's brain becomes saturated after reaching a threshold and will not absorb more input.  Of course, the threshold would be different for everyone.  I know I was burned out studying intensely for the verbal part after almost a month and the last week before my test, I hit a plateau on the practice exams.  

I'm not in your field, but for history in general the SOP is more important than the GRE, and the verbal score is more important than the quant.  I was told by several of my current MA faculty not to worry about the quant part.  That was a relief because I only had about a month to prepare and with classwork, thesis research and PhD applications taking up most of my time, I only concentrated on prepping for the verbal sections.  I made have studied two or three days before my test on math formulas just to refresh my memory since I hadn't done math for a very long time.  Even in the top history programs, where the quant. score is a consideration for university fellowships they don't expect the applicant to score in the same range as STEM applicants.