Having a side job when you are not supposed to...

[QuirkyGrad64]

I searched a bit on the forums and couldn't find this question. I am curious to know if anyone who is getting their PhD holds a part time job outside of their work and research? I am currently involved in some extra curricular activities which I will quit if I take this opportunity for a weekend job, but I really don't want to pass up the money that I could make. It's a lucrative position at a fancy restaurant waiting tables. Big money!

I technically signed a contract to hold no other work. I don't think my school would kick me out, just reprimand me and make me quit. Thoughts on this?

Overall I am doing really well in my program so far, and get along excellently with my advisor. I would be working all the time, and I can't do that for forever, but for the time being until summer I think it would be worth it. If the school questions me, I will tell them I was setting myself up for summer work... simply?

Thoughts?

Thanks!

[Sigaba]

Have you ever seen what can happen when a graduate student inspires doubts about his/her integrity among The Powers That Be ?

Is this side job so lucrative that you can afford to lose the financial support that you do have and be on the wrong side of your program?

Will this side job help you to establish relationships with people who can help you get where you need to go in your program if your POI and other professors decide to send you a clear but subtle message?

(Even if the answer to all three questions is "yes," I think you should still honor the contract you signed. If your program concludes that you're word is no good on one issue, what is stopping people from broadening that judgement to all aspects of your conduct?)

My $0.02.

[FWIW, I once offered to work for free so I could get experience as a teaching assistant. As I was on a fellowship, it was made quite clear to me that it was my job to study, and nothing else.]

[QuirkyGrad64]

Thank you for your feedback. This is good insight. I forgot to mention one other key piece of information. My contract is 9 months, so the summer is free and open for work. Taking this job now would set me up for the summer... so I could work it for at least that short time. In addition, my advisor never asks me to work or partake in anything over weekends. So this added job wouldn't conflict there.

I really do appreciate your feedback, I just wanted to add that additional information. As for connections with other people, I do connect and communicate with many students. I am willing to quit and remain a student if I get overwhelmed, but I feel silly not even trying?...

This is tough.

[QuirkyGrad64]

I also forgot to mention that I know of other grad students who hold side jobs and are sort of open about it. It's common knowledge enough that I knew "who to ask for advice" within my program.

[robot_hamster]

I'm not a PhD student and I don't have a fellowship. If I have a TA position though, there is nothing that says I can't have outside employment. If you're allowed to work during the summer, then maybe you could say to your adviser:

"Hey, I have this job lined up for summer but they would like me to start a little early. Would it be okay if I start working there before the semester is over?"

It's worth a shot. Plus you wouldn't risk someone going to this place and seeing you.

[QuirkyGrad64]

Well I decided against the side job. It was only going to make me feel worse, and I'm already getting funded. I will stick to side income from easier, less time consuming means, like selling junk on eBay. Thanks!

[lewin]

Glad you made the decision not to take a job. Pragmatically, I doubt you would have been able to keep it a secret. What if your professor had showed up to eat at your restaurant? Awkward!

[Eigen]

It's quite frowned upon at our school. Most departments had policies against having an outside job concurrent with any university funding (including tuission remission), and now the graduate school as a whole has added a section forbidding outside jobs without the direct permission of the dean/department chair.

Most of the large-scale national fellowships do it as well- outside employment is a reason to pull NSF or NIH fellowships without express permission of the program officer.

[risingsun11801]

It depends on the school and type of funding. My friend at OSU has a 50% TA appointment (20hrs a week) and is allowed to have 10 hrs/week of outside employment.

On a related note, does anyone have experience with a side business during a funded Phd? More along the lines of making and selling things, ect.

[champagnecake]

NOTHING wrong with a side job. In fact, I think it is good for your wallet *and* your mind. I really want a part-time job (even though I am fully funded) to bring in some extra cash and help me manage my time. There is nothing wrong with a waitress, retail, library, coffee shop, whatever job as long as it doesn't take over your study time.

[Eigen]

NOTHING wrong with a side job. In fact, I think it is good for your wallet *and* your mind. I really want a part-time job (even though I am fully funded) to bring in some extra cash and help me manage my time. There is nothing wrong with a waitress, retail, library, coffee shop, whatever job as long as it doesn't take over your study time.

Unless, as in the OPs case, it's forbidden to have outside work as a stipulation of the department. And in that case, there's plenty wrong with it.

[TakeruK]

Maybe someone can explain why departments are against their students having a side job? Note: for International students, we are also forbidden to work off campus because of visa regulations, but that is a US Immigration issue.

But for American/domestic students, why can't a student work on their free time if they like to? Is it because the school wants the student to devote 100% of their time to their work/studies? But that is unreasonable, a students' free time should be spent the way they like!

I guess the situation could be different in Canada? Here, even our major government fellowship say that we are allowed to work up to 10 hours a week (most of this is taken up by TA work though). Graduate students do private tutoring all the time to make some extra cash. I know some people who do tutoring almost full time (20+ hours a week) during midterm and finals season (and makes up for it during the weeks before/after). Other students are on varsity sports teams, or do less formal sports and extracurricular activities. Some are also involved in student government or serve on the Executive of the school's TA labour union (some of these are "paid"/honorarium positions). The bottom line is that why is it okay for students to spend 10-20 hours a week doing things like play sports, knit, watch tv, but it's not okay if they take a part time job?

Maybe things are really different, because someone above mentioned that they had the chance to be a TA for free! I can't see how it's ethical for departments to ask their students to work for free AND also ask them not to do what they want in their spare time.

I can understand not being allowed to work because you are not a citizen of the country. But as long as you are making satisfactory progress on your research work and studies, which is what your stipend is paying you for, you've completed all obligations to them and they should have no say in how you spend your free time.

Edited March 27, 2012 by TakeruK

[Eigen]

It's just like any other job with a "no-compete" contract. Any employer can stipulate requirements for funding if you accept them, and if one of those requirements is that you not work a side job, so be it. As I mentioned above, most of the competitive national fellowships (NSF GRFP, etc) have similar wording that prohibits any outside employment without the express permission of the program officer/advisor. You won't find any other salaried, full time job at any company that allows you to have side-employment without express permission of the management, it's a quite common requirement.

But then, lots of people get hung up on the "10 hour" or "20 hour" assistantships. A funding package is for you, full time, and includes your assistantship, tuition remission, and any other packaged benefits. And it's intended to go to someone that's a full time student, between research, teaching, and coursework. And most places that prohibit outside work consider it to be a full time job, which doesn't leave room for other employment. The point is that the assistantship is only a (relatively) small part of the duties that you are being paid for, although it's the "job of record"- it's just like any other salaried, full time job. Once you're no longer being paid for the hour, but rather by the job on a yearly salary, the type of work changes, and you're technically on the job around the clock as needed, until the job is finished.

The point is that you could be making *more* progress on any of your other work if you aren't working an outside job, since that time can be devoted to work instead. This doesn't apply in the same way to other "free-time" activitites, that are required for a healthy, happy and holistic life. No one begrudges you for having a life outside the lab, but if you're going to be working anywhere, it should be on your research.

And as to completing all obligations, if one of the obligations you signed off on is "not having an outside job", then you aren't completing all of the obligations.

And maybe I'm one of the crazy ones, but I TA for free every semester, because it's a great source of teaching experience for my resume.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Eigen

[lewin]

In my department anybody with a part time job wouldn't be making "satisfactory progress". Studies are expected to take up all your time, minus reasonable leisure. If you have time to work at a coffee shop you have time to do more research.

Edit to add: Eigen's comment is exactly what I meant, but worded better: "The point is that you could be making *more* progress on any of your other work if you aren't working an outside job, since that time can be devoted to work instead. This doesn't apply in the same way to other "free-time" activitites, that are required for a healthy, happy and holistic life. No one begrudges you for having a life outside the lab, but if you're going to be working anywhere, it should be on your research."

Edited March 27, 2012 by lewin00

[Behavioral]

There seems to be some confusion in this thread.

Eigen and lewin00 are both giving advice based on the assumption that you're in a research-intensive PhD program presumably with full-funding.

If you're in a Master's program, then much of their advice doesn't really apply to you.

[Eigen]

There seems to be some confusion in this thread.

Eigen and lewin00 are both giving advice based on the assumption that you're in a research-intensive PhD program presumably with full-funding.

If you're in a Master's program, then much of their advice doesn't really apply to you.

Since the OP is asking about meshing a job in with research in a PhD program where outside jobs aren't allowed..... And actually, on re-reading, I don't see anyone that looks to be talking about Masters programs in the whole thread, but maybe that's just my reading of it.

But yes, all of this is for full funding. As far as I know, a school can't make you not work just by being enrolled. They can, however, make any funding whatsoever dependent on you not having external employment.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Eigen

[Behavioral]

Since the OP is asking about meshing a job in with research in a PhD program where outside jobs aren't allowed..... And actually, on re-reading, I don't see anyone that looks to be talking about Masters programs in the whole thread, but maybe that's just my reading of it.

But yes, all of this is for full funding. As far as I know, a school can't make you not work just by being enrolled. They can, however, make any funding whatsoever dependent on you not having external employment.

I may be getting confused myself with another thread.

I think I also could have been inferring robot_hamster to be a Masters student with his post and champagnecake mentioned in another thread he/she is currently a Masters student and just got accepted into a PhD student (so I assumed they were probably talking about getting a part-time job while pursuing a Masters).

[robot_hamster]

I may be getting confused myself with another thread.

I think I also could have been inferring robot_hamster to be a Masters student with his post and champagnecake mentioned in another thread he/she is currently a Masters student and just got accepted into a PhD student (so I assumed they were probably talking about getting a part-time job while pursuing a Masters).

I noted that I wasn't a PhD student, yes. I didn't want the OP to assume I was coming from the perspective of a PhD student, so I included that bit of info in there. I'm a masters student and having an outside job is not a problem for me. I realize that some programs don't want a student to have an outside job though if they are receiving funding. I just wanted to chime in before since the OP did say they were allowed to have summer employment.

Edited March 27, 2012 by robot_hamster

[champagnecake]

Okay, sorry for not being more specific. Also, I am very confused.

If you are forbidden- do *not* get a job (and really don't trade equities). Maybe you could babysit, or do yardwork for an elderly couple? Neither is very lucrative, but they might be helpful.

If you are *not* forbidden- Get a job (duh).

In summary- don't shit you are forbidden from doing.

[ktel]

You could definitely at least do some tutoring and make pretty good money if you can find the right students.

[lewin]

Sorry yes, I definitely assumed research-intensive, PhD. My bad. (do the kids still say that?)

At a broader level, the purpose of a PhD is to work your ass off to get as much research done as possible (while staying sane) so that you can have a job at the end. In my program nobody has second jobs but the people who have picked up too many outside activities (volunteering, student politics) have fallen behind in their research. At the outset it's easy to say "I'll only do this in my spare time," but those activities always encroach into research time.

[TakeruK]

I suppose funding packages work very different in the US then, and that will be a change for me next fall. But, my visa status will not let me work anyways, so I guess it won't really matter for me, personally. If I was an American and my funding contract had a no outside work option, and I felt that I absolutely needed the work, I wouldn't go behind their back, but I would let them know my intentions and see what they do. But although I do want to argue that we should be able to do whatever we want outside our "work hours", I personally would want to spend more time on my PhD!

But it really bothers me that schools offer a funding package and then expect you to work as much as possible (while maintaining a healthy life) in order to just make "satisfactory progress". It bothers me that it seems like TA assignments in many places have no real job protections. For example, your supervisor could make you work as many hours as they wanted. My current TAships all have set number of hours, I get paid extra if I work additional hours, we get overtime pay if we had to e.g. mark an exam on Sundays, we get sick leave, conference leave, bereavement leave, and if we take maternity leave in the middle of a contract, we get paid the remainder of the contract. I tend to work up to 10% more hours than my contract and not say anything about it since I enjoy my work as a TA and I want to take the time to fairly grade my students' work / prepare for labs etc. But just because I care about my job doesn't mean I don't care about working rights. I feel that schools know we want that valuable teaching experience so they take advantage of us by offering us that experience without pay, knowing that we want both the teaching experience and to gain approval of the faculty.

My RAship has less benefits (RAs are not unionized here) but we still have contract hours, which the number of hours we are expected to work (~20/week) to make "satisfactory progress". If we choose to work more, that's our own choice because it's in our own best interests to do the best project possible, or if we want to finish earlier etc. That is, if one chooses to devote all their time to research (inside of outside activities), then they should be getting ahead in their research, not just making minimum progress!

I think the idea that you should only have time for "reasonable leisure" and your studies is an unreasonable demand that schools have on their students. Graduate students should be treated like other workers, not acolytes devoted to research for our masters. I want to raise a family, spend time with my wife, etc. after finishing up the "busy" years of coursework and oral exams. So I plan to treat graduate work as an "office job", keeping regular hours, not taking my work home with me, but still working 50-60 hours a week. It's reasonable for students to work on weekends, but that should be an extra thing that a good student is doing, not the minimum level for "satisfactory progress".

Unfortunately, I realise that these ideal conditions are pretty much never true and I expect to possibly run into conflicts about this when I start a PhD program next fall. Maybe I will then learn why I am wrong, or maybe I will find a compromise that makes everyone happy. It's just depressing to think about the lack of rights that American grad students seem to have!

Edited March 28, 2012 by TakeruK

[Genomic Repairman]

I was forbidden to have an outside job in my MS program but I moonlighted teaching labs at another university across town. The classes I taught were at night and generally if no one met with me during office hours I did my own work then. Also I never graded while in my lab. And it was damn lucrative and helped support me beyond my meager stipend.

The whole forbidden job thing is a bit like, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" but with a little don't be dumb and get caught mixed in with it.

[Eigen]

And see, in my department, if we asked we'd probably be told it was fine to get a job teaching labs across town, assuming we framed it properly.

TakeruK:

You seem to be mixing two issues consistently. One is having a life while in a PhD program- most places, this is perfectly acceptable, and quite often encouraged. The other is working a side job while in a PhD program.

The issue isn't how much time you work vs. what you do in your free time, but rather how you split up your "working" time. And it's often based on the understanding that you really only have so many productive hours of energy in a day. If you're going to be expending energy working, then it should be on your PhD. In other words, working a second job isn't considered a "free-time" activity.

There's also the idea that you should be working primarily to build up your CV. Most advisors really care that you go on to do pretty well in the field, because it shows them in a good light, and is kind of the point of getting a PhD. Volunteering, teaching, and even "service" (committees, etc) are all part of that. It's not the most important part of your CV (your publications and research are), but it's definitely a plus.

Working waiting tables, on the other hand, isn't downtime, and doesn't contribute to your CV. Basically, even raising a family or spending time with your spouse, is an activity that is seen as being beneficial to your life long term, while a side-job really isn't.

[eco_env]

I think it's ridiculous that grad students can't work when their pay is not nearly enough to live on- at my school you need to get permission to work if you make as little as $10K. Then again, I don't know how easy it is to get permission.