Berkeley's arrogance

[angelayar]

No I just really wanted to start a debate about whether it was better to get this type of rejction or no. Seems most people think there is no differnce between a letter and this type of go check the site. Seems to be overwhelming majority view that this behavior is ok. Fine! So I will not reappear here or reignite all the hatreds.

[agalaapple]

GO BEARS!

 

In all seriousness, Berkeley is a great school, and I am sorry if they offend anyone with their supposedly cold rejection letters.

[agalaapple]

Well, I've said for months that Berkeley is vastly overrated.. and most applicants cant even tell you why they apply there other than "it's the thing to do."

 

But at the same time, they're inundated with international applicants, never mind the domestic ones, who likely didn't really consider te program, what they want to do, etc.. beyond "Go to Berkeley."

 

Trying to combat that there's going to be some collateral damage. Many people who would have been perfectly good or even exceptional students will get cut.. and some who will turn out to be terrible mindless morons will get accepted. Such is life.

 

You are mistaken if you think Berkeley is "vastly overrated." Berkeley is one of the world's most elite institutions of higher learning.

[agalaapple]

I attended Berkeley as a PhD student (I didn't graduate), and there are several misconceptions about UC Berkeley in this thread. In the interest of time, here are two misconceptions that I will address:

 

1) Berkeley has a lot of wealthy students.

 

Berkeley has a lot of wealthy undergrads, but they also have plenty of undergrads who are from the middle- and lower-class. Berkeley's graduate students are an eclectic bunch on the family income spectrum. If any graduate students come from a wealthy background, they sure don't live like it.

 

2) Berkeley's departments are ripping off applicants with such high application fees.

 

I agree that the application fees are high, but at Berkeley, every professor is so busy that the admissions committees need a good way to limit and deter so many graduate school applications. These departments are also suffering when it comes to finances, so the application fees help with their bottom lines.

[czesc]

I will say that one stereotype about Berkeley that rings true in this thread is horrifying disorganization at the administrative level. Of course, every large university has elements of this problem, but not to the same extent I'd heard about there. I know people there (in various other subjects) who fled with terminal MAs or wish they had simply because they couldn't take the bureaucracy. That didn't stop me from applying, given the fantastic academic reputation of the program, but the fact I wouldn't be dealing with that mess did help console me when I didn't get in. 

Edited February 7, 2014 by czesc

[Eigen]

Note that many large graduate schools will have one, or more, full time administrators who do nothing other than deal with graduate admissions and paperwork. We even have one for our department that does mostly this. 

 

Then think of how much you're paying in app fees, and think that those are split between one or more administrators salaries. 

 

It's not like this money is going to the admissions committee. 

 

Also think about the number of people the school will bring out for interviews or visits, and how they fund those. 

[CageFree]

This thread is just ridiculous.

 

No rejection letter is going to be warm and fuzzy. Get over it. 

 

If you can't handle a rejection with maturity, you have no business being in graduate school. 

[Zephyr99]

I think people are forgetting that this thread was someone's drunken, depressed rant about not getting into one of the top PhD programs in the world. It's time to stop analyzing this so much.

[0000]

I think people are forgetting that this thread was someone's drunken, depressed rant about not getting into one of the top PhD programs in the world. It's time to stop analyzing this so much.

 

We're academics.  It's our job to overanalyze trivial things until they no longer exist in any meaningful way.

[astaroth27]

Berkeley was a bad fit and I may discover that my application for other institutions wasn't so great.

 

But I'm completely astonished that people will accept their treatment at the hands of Berkeley. As a foreign student, I had to pay $100 to apply to Berkeley. In my home country, it is free to apply for graduate school. Where is my money?

 

Berkeley mismatched my GRE scores and didn't even bother to tell me. Then they said out a totally dehumanizing email telling me to check my account and then just read some form rubbish.

 

I'm going to write a letter to Ethan Shagan, who is responsible for this degrading treatment. YES RESPONSIBLE. He is department chair and under his watch this has happened.

 

Please can others join me. His email address is: shagan@berkeley.edu

 

Here is the website of this gentleman: http://history.berkeley.edu/people/ethan-h-shagan

 

And really, please don't post nonsense about this being the process and me being p'd off. Obviously I'm upset not to be admitted but I'm ANGRY that this is the way people are treated. And please understand, if this is how they treat you now at this august institution, this is how they will treat you when you finally get your PhD from wherever.

 

Just don't take this from them. Please

 

Please don't do this. Any PI I know would do his/her best to blackball you forever over sending such an email. Getting rejected sucks but your best bet is to handle it like a grown-up.

[dr. t]

So the most shocking thing to me in this thread is that some people applied to over 10 schools.

 

How the heck are there that many schools with departments which are even vaguely a good fit?

[CageFree]

So the most shocking thing to me in this thread is that some people applied to over 10 schools.

 

How the heck are there that many schools with departments which are even vaguely a good fit?

 

Or... how did anyone have the funds to apply to that many programs? I applied to six and was BROKE afterwards, even though I was working full-time!

[czesc]

I applied to at least 10 schools last year. True, not all of them were "perfect" fits, but I don't think I really realized at the time to what extent a school needed to be a fit -- I basically just went with wherever had people working in my general areas of interest, and/or places that various faculty I knew recommended based on my interests (which wound up adding up to quite a list). I had a better sense of what a true fit was after I got my results and heard what some others at other schools had thought about where my complete application would have really belonged. 

 

To be honest, though, I'm still not sure fit matters to such an extent at all times and everywhere. Some programs in some years seem just fine taking "good" applicants that don't fit extremely well; others seem more preoccupied with the details of your interests. 

 

As for the money aspect -- well, I had a good enough paying job and saved enough with this goal in mind that it wasn't impossible. From what I recall there are programs that reduce or eliminate the fee in cases of financial hardship as well.

Edited February 12, 2014 by czesc

[Riotbeard]

Good reading... 

 

The idea of personalized rejections, while nice, is absurd.  Who on earth wants to become a professor, so they can sit around writing rejection letters.

 

Just a piece of advice reiterated, you need to improve your coping skills.  Casting a wide net of applications is the sad nature of the career you are beginning for decades to come, and your golden rule should be, all you need is one acceptance at every point.  For me, right now, applications are for grants and dissertation fellowships.  In two years, it will be jobs/post docs.  Most of my applications will get rejected.  It is what it is.  Form rejections are the only efficient way to accomplish this, unless you want to become an applicant grief counselor who teaches during their spare time... The best option for you is to not take it personally, and as much as possible, roll with the punches.

[Pacifico]

Regardless of the misconceptions, finger pointing, and drunkenness on this thread, I'd like to point out that when I applied to UC Berkeley this term I was able to self report my GRE scores....

[vityaz]

So the most shocking thing to me in this thread is that some people applied to over 10 schools.

 

How the heck are there that many schools with departments which are even vaguely a good fit?

 

Someone's signature in the Philosophy forum says that they applied to 30+ schools. I can't even imagine how much time/money that would cost.

[Roy_Baty]

Someone's signature in the Philosophy forum says that they applied to 30+ schools. I can't even imagine how much time/money that would cost.

30?!?  That's.. a bit excessive.

[dr. t]

30?!?  That's.. a bit excessive.

 

I see you have mastered the art of dramatic understatement.

[maelia8]

I applied to six schools, and that was stretching my budget … I don't know how anybody manages so many (costwise or timewise).

[Roy_Baty]

I see you have mastered the art of dramatic understatement.

You're right, applying to 30 is absolutely crazy.

[Nikos Evangelos]

I am an extreme anti-capitalist but recognize the necessity of the application fee. Otherwise there would be literally thousands of people applying to every program in their chosen field. However, in exchange you have every right to expect that they don't lose or mismatch your materials, correct it if they do, and keep you properly informed of what they've received and what your status is.

[hdunlop]

I'm no MBA but it seems that, even as an extreme anti-capitalist, you embrace the notion of supply and demand.

[Nikos Evangelos]

Supply and demand is not an inherently capitalist dynamic. And "I'm no MBA" is an excellent qualification.

[seeingeyeduck]

Wow, do people forget that there are other human beings at the other end or what? Sometimes mistakes happen, but that is human nature. You do your best to fix them but sometimes you're just out of luck. Nobody's out to screw anyone. Honest mistakes happen. Sucks when it happens, but that doesn't make those people arrogant.

I'm confused by people who knowingly spend lots of money on schools they consider bad fits then complain about the cost. No one is forcing applicants to apply to many schools. IMO in any app seasons you should front load the process and do the work of scoping our faculty and contacting pois or current grads to figure out fit BEFORE you punk down all that money. It makes no sense to spend a bunch of money, then figure out fit after you get acceptances. You should already have some idea going in.

I'll never get people who apply to a top ranked school just to find out if they're "good enough" rather than because of fit. These are inevitably the people who get all butt hurt and indignant after they get rejected - "I applied here not because I'm interested, but because I wanted a little self esteem boost! How dare you not give me my self-esteem boost!" Yikes.

Some really don't even seem to understand that in any app process the most likely result is rejection. You should know that going in! You don't get to demand your money back just because the result is not to your liking! What do you bet the OP would've been fine spending that $100 if they'd gotten in? A lot of rationalizing going on here...

Edited February 26, 2014 by seeingeyeduck

[Sigaba]

Go Bears...