In the (likely) event that I'm not accepted to PhD...

[academicbirb]

I want to teach, do research, and do clinical work, and a clinical/counseling PhD is the fastest and cheapest way for me to reach that goal. I'm not a prideful person, but it's really burning me that I'm failing at what I've literally spent the last five years preparing for.

Where should I go from here? It's looking more and more likely that I'll be rejected across the board, and while I did apply to MSW/MPH programs as a fallback/safety I really don't want to get into a crazy amount of debt for a non-terminal degree. I've been working for two labs (volunteer, then part-time paid and volunteer, then for credit, then back to volunteer) since I was a junior in undergrad. I've been working for the PI who supervised my thesis as a lab manager since I graduated last year and have continued on as a volunteer in the other lab. I've done a clinical internship, have banked well over 3,000 hours in both labs, got stellar LORs, 3.986 GPA, one completed publication and one out for review when I applied and will have more soon, along with a few presentations. Both of my PIs are pretty well known/respected in their fields/within psych in general, and I have connections to most of my POIs through the PIs I currently work for. The advice I've received from the people I trust from last year's (failed) app cycle is that I was 1) too young 2) too inexperienced -- one specifically said that some people only want folks 2 years out of undergrad and/or a master's with a thesis, 3) GRE scores but I've been stalking the results tracker and folks with lower scores than me are getting interviews. While I do plan on emailing my POIs from this year to see what they're looking for, I'm not sure what my best course of action would be from here assuming that I get into at least one MSW & one MPH. I know a lot of this is just a numbers game, too, and it might not be anything wrong with me personally, but it seems like the best thing I can do to help my PhD chances is just... age? 

My thought process is:

Option 1) do the MPH, then apply for clinical/counseling PhDs 
Option 2) do the MSW, then apply for an easier psych degree [developmental] and public health PhDs 
Option 3) work another year, apply again, cry about how much money I'm wasting on apps. 

 

[socrate4se]

Hi there!

Before going into to much detail, I'm wondering: how much contact with your POIs have you already had? I ask because you mention that you "plan" on emailing them to see what they are looking for. Does that mean you have not already?

[stereopticons]

Hi there--been in this boat. If you can get funding for a masters degree, it may help you get in next round. If you can't and would have to go into debt, I would suggest trying to get a full time research position if you can find one. I know it hurts (trust me, this is my fifth round) but don't give up. 

[periwinkle27]

I'm surprised that it hasn't worked out given your experience. Have you been exclusively applying to POIs that match your interests and experience?

Edited January 15, 2017 by periwinkle27

[academicbirb]

@socrate4se I've heard a lot of mixed things on whether it's fine/not, and I think it varies by PI too. Both of my PIs told me not to before the app cycle started, but that it was fine to do so afterwards. I know two of my POIs from last year personally from either the volunteer or paid labs, so after I was rejected, I went to them for advice, and didn't email anyone else because I took them for their word. I'm applying to the same school that I currently work at, and I know the clinical program just had funding cut so odds are the counseling PhD program has as well -- so even fewer spots open than last year. 

@stereopticons Thank you, I really appreciate it! Ahh, sorry, I should have clarified, I'm technically part time in my paid lab because they can't afford to give me employee benefits (and since I'm still young I'm on my parents' insurance so I'm not salty) but I'm working the max number of hours that can still be considered "part time." so just under 40/week, and when combined with the volunteer lab I'm working more than that. I might try to find another position just to diversify my interests further (which is why I started working for a second lab in the first place) if master's programs aren't forthcoming with funds. 

@periwinkle27 Yup! I'm not making a ton of money so I really tried to be prudent about where I applied for that reason and to boost my chances of getting in. All of my POIs have heavy overlap with what I've already done in terms of topics and methods (and some are collaborators with my current PIs) and I have a pretty diverse research skill set. I am limited to the Boston area because of my health -- the one specialist who studies my condition is here and I'd feel really uncomfortable leaving the state in case something went wrong. I know Boston's VERY competitive in general but I was hoping since I was a lot more careful in where I picked this year that I'd have better chances. 

[cheesecafe]

Bummer to hear your applications are not shaking out as you were hoping. I don't know what type of research you are interested in, and it looks like your second back-up option listed is to pursue a PhD in developmental so you may have already thought of this... One option that a former professor sold me on was pursuing a PhD in developmental psychology so you would be able to teach and conduct research. And then, if you still find that the clinical piece is very important to you, you could go back to school for a clinically-oriented masters program. Depending on your state, this may allow you to see clients. 

[LLsApps]

1 hour ago, academicbirb said:

I am limited to the Boston area because of my health -- the one specialist who studies my condition is here and I'd feel really uncomfortable leaving the state in case something went wrong. I know Boston's VERY competitive in general but I was hoping since I was a lot more careful in where I picked this year that I'd have better chances. 

This is likely your problem. No matter how competitive of an applicant you are, your best shot for clinical PhD acceptances is applying to at least 12-15 schools with no geographic limitations. All of the traditional advice regarding ways to improve your application may not be enough to overcome this hurdle, unfortunately. Your reasons for limiting yourself this way are certainly understandable, but I haven't seen anyone who limited their applications like this have success. Best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

[C is for Caps Locks]

That's a good point I think, while having geographic limitations is completely understandable, when applying to something as competitive as clinical psychology it's probably best to aim for a high number of applications (even when you look like a great applicant).

Edited January 15, 2017 by C is for Caps Locks

[academicbirb]

So essentially, sucks to suck, I'm never getting into a counseling psych PhD because money/health. So I guess I'll do the MSW first and then developmental or public health. Thanks y'all.  

[LLsApps]

I hope my comment didn't upset you; I just know that after I was unsuccessful after my first round, I wanted people to be honest rather than give false hope. It's frustrating for everyone to tell you that your application is perfect and they don't know why you didn't get in when you feel like you must be missing something. I hoped to help you avoid going through this again in a year with the same limitations and the same outcome.

I would encourage you to browse Student Doctor Network; they come up against this issue a lot and people much more eloquent than me have explained the problem. Unfortunately,  clinical psychology PhD programs generally require a degree of flexibility when it comes to location. Even if you were accepted to a school in Boston, you would likely have to move again for internship year, and possibly even again for a postdoc. 

The bottom line is that applying to a small number of clinical psych programs in a highly competitive geographic area is like a high-school student only applying to a single school - Harvard. As impressive as the student might be, no college counselor is going to advise that course of action, because the odds are just not in their favor. The college counselor could look at the student's application and tell them that there are no obvious reasons why Harvard wouldn't accept them, just as there seem to be no obvious reasons you wouldn't be accepted, but there is no guaranteed formula for admission to Harvard, or a clinical psychology PhD program. 

All of this only applies to clinical PhD programs, though. I have no experience with counseling programs and do not know anyone with experience with them, so I really can't speak to them.  

Edited January 16, 2017 by LLsApps

[academicbirb]

@LLsApps Nope, not upset with you at all! I am super sorry if it came off that way! This is just a garbage situation to be in; my mentors have known this was my plan for a solid three years and haven't tried at all to direct me off of what will likely be a dead-end path for me. 

[buttercup8d]

I wouldn't lose hope, especially if this is really what you want. I was unsuccessful with PhD applications last year, and now I'm hearing back from almost every program I applied to. I did a few things differently this year. Honestly, no one can really direct you on the 'correct' answer because no one knows it. I wouldn't blame any of your mentors. From what I've learned:

1) Fit is key - for both your POI and Overall Program. Your personal statement will reflect that.

2) Unique experience and showing that you know how to do research are key (Not necessarily that you have a specific research interest. This was my biggest mistake last year)

3) Having contact with your POI beforehand is absolutely key (I had several 'pre-interviews' with different POIs before the interview invitations were even extended. I did not know programs did this at all)

Hope this helps. These programs are competitive for a reason. If you're planning to dedicate the rest of your life to psychology, I would say it's worth another shot.

Edited January 25, 2017 by buttercup8d

[8BitJourney]

11 hours ago, buttercup8d said:

I wouldn't lose hope, especially if this is really what you want. I was unsuccessful with PhD applications last year, and now I'm hearing back from almost every program I applied to. I did a few things differently this year. Honestly, no one can really direct you on the 'correct' answer because no one knows it. I wouldn't blame any of your mentors. From what I've learned:

1) Fit is key - for both your POI and Overall Program. Your personal statement will reflect that.

2) Unique experience and showing that you know how to do research are key (Not necessarily that you have a specific research interest. This was my biggest mistake last year)

3) Having contact with your POI beforehand is absolutely key (I had several 'pre-interviews' with different POIs before the interview invitations were even extended. I did not know programs did this at all)

Hope this helps. These programs are competitive for a reason. If you're planning to dedicate the rest of your life to psychology, I would say it's worth another shot.

Just wanted to clarify point 3. A lot of schools do pre-interviews because they need to have long-lists of applicants pulled from the total amount of apps for their lab (ie 250 people apply for 1 to 2 spots in a lab so a POI selects 12 for their longlist that they like). Then do pre-interviews of the long list because usually there are only so many people that they can bring to campus and the pre-interview helps them get an initial feel of who to select from that list (so invite 5 fro the 12 to make their 'shortlist'). I know many competitive programs like UConn, chapel hill, penn, UMB and many others who do this. For others it really could be that if you contact a POI then they'll make special accommodations but its not a guarantee of late, its looking like standard procedure due to the large mount of apps these schools receive.

That being said. Yeah contacting prior to application season with well-thought of questions can really work in your favor depending on your POI (and increase your chance of getting to the pre-interview stage).

[Le Chat]

Unfortunately I can't help you with decision making, but while my target is doctoral Counseling Psychology I have two back up programs. One is a M.S. in Clinical Psychology where I can also complete research, the other is  M.S. in Psychology Research which is a feeder program for Clinical doctoral. 

I hope something works out for you!

[justbreathe]

You could also do a PhD in developmental psych & then later do a "re specialization" in clinical... There aren't as many respecialization programs (obviously) but they only take like, two years (I think), and shouldn't be nearly as hard to get into!

[buttercup8d]

On 1/25/2017 at 8:37 AM, 8BitJourney said:

Just wanted to clarify point 3. A lot of schools do pre-interviews because they need to have long-lists of applicants pulled from the total amount of apps for their lab (ie 250 people apply for 1 to 2 spots in a lab so a POI selects 12 for their longlist that they like). Then do pre-interviews of the long list because usually there are only so many people that they can bring to campus and the pre-interview helps them get an initial feel of who to select from that list (so invite 5 fro the 12 to make their 'shortlist'). I know many competitive programs like UConn, chapel hill, penn, UMB and many others who do this. For others it really could be that if you contact a POI then they'll make special accommodations but its not a guarantee of late, its looking like standard procedure due to the large mount of apps these schools receive.

That being said. Yeah contacting prior to application season with well-thought of questions can really work in your favor depending on your POI (and increase your chance of getting to the pre-interview stage).

To me, choosing 250 out of 1-2 spots for my lab would be overwhelming, and I would want to make sure that I chose the right person. I really think programs would benefit if they chose a few more amazing applicants. Some POIs contacted me before I even submitted my applications so I would say this made the biggest difference between my 1st and 2nd cycle.

[8BitJourney]

5 minutes ago, buttercup8d said:

To me, choosing 250 out of 1-2 spots for my lab would be overwhelming, and I would want to make sure that I chose the right person. I really think programs would benefit if they chose a few more amazing applicants. Some POIs contacted me before I even submitted my applications so I would say this made the biggest difference between my 1st and 2nd cycle.

I mean it really depends on how many funding streams the lab and school has. The example that I gave was an actual example of me interviewing with chapel hill this year (even the POI was lamenting how ridiculously competitive the process is). The POI loved my app but with so many applicants there's a high chance other applicants will have better aligned experiences; I was also pretty honest in my SOP about what I wanted to do in grad school rather than pidgeonhole myself. Though being contacted by POIs prior to submitting your app is rare unless you initiate contact.