xypathos

PhD only, really. Your focus shouldn't be on publications at the M* level, you just simply don't enough to make meaningful contributions to the field. As a general rule, if you want to go onto a PhD you should get your M* at a school that grants PhDs. Odds are their faculty are well connected enough to know a strong student when they see one, their LORs mean something, etc, etc etc.

If you go in aware of all of this, I think you're perfectly equipped and ready. The application process for either school is tedious and (jokingly) pretty much consists of writing a publishable paper. My extremely limited interactions with Cambridge and Oxford grads has me believing that Cambridge alums are better off. I can't really speak job prospects since I haven't had extensive conversations in that realm but Cambridge alums always spoke highly of the program and social atmosphere that helped them survive. As a whole, they've just seemed happier. That said, if you follow QS Rankings for 'Theology, Divinity, and Religious Studies,' which Harvard loves to cite from, then Oxford is considered the better of the two options, though barely. A potential third option would be Durham (they sometimes out rank Oxford and Cambridge, field dependent) but they're even more conservative than Oxford or Cambridge. Anecdotal: I've noticed that Cambridge tends to interview more than Oxford. This tells me that they're aware that the application process does not provide the best glimpse of you as a candidate and want to see you in person (actually it's usually over Skype but you catch my drift!). They want to ask you questions during the interview and see not so much your answer but have you explain how you got there. As far as differences, I've only visited both schools as a someone on vacation. I've never set foot inside a classroom or spent any extended time talking to faculty. From a purely name drop perspective, saying Oxford turns more heads than Cambridge, IMO.

Honestly, most of the people I know (PhD students in my cohort and current faculty), we're all banking on using IBR and/or that universities count as non-profits and discharging our loans after working X-years. I made use of a communal living arrangement during my M* that helped a lot. For the majority of students, you just have to work a part-time job and make it work. On top of this that usually means roommates and/or having a working spouse. I also had some classmates that enlisted into the military after their M* degree. Took advantage of that sweet loan repayment option and then used/intend to use their Post-9/11 GI Bill to do a second M* or buy their way into a PhD. I think all of the PhD students at VDS worked some kind of side hustle to bring in extra money. It ranged from teaching intro courses at the CC, waiting tables, or working at a coffee shop. In Nashville, working at the Genius Bar at Apple was popular b/c the manager was a VDS alum and would hire M* or PhD students, generally on the spot and was willing to accommodate whatever your schedule was. The reality is that the cost of M* degrees for the vast majority of students, even with scholarships, is untenable. VDS was putting out 50-60+ students a year with 80k+ in graduate loans, on top of what they had in their undergrad. I've worked at a lot of seminary and divinity schools and networked with many more - it's even worse at a lot of them. Given the amount of grads being pumped out for the few jobs that open up, barring a shift in culture again, future students need that person who is willing to sit down and say "Picking up and moving across the US to attend Harvard isn't in your cards," especially when there are far cheaper options closer to home. I won't rant about it here, however much I'm tempted. I love what graduate programs in Religious Studies, seminaries, and divinity schools offer their students and communities but the current system no longer works. It's stuck in a 1950s mindset of how the US works.

If you want to better position yourself for a PhD program in North America then HDS is your only option. KU Leuven is a wonderful school with access to amazing cultural resources. There has been the occasional student here that graduated from Leuven and gone onto top programs. That said, I've also seen faculty have to google KU Leuven when someone says their name. There is also a rather wide belief that you only go to Europe for a Masters and then to the US for PhD because you couldn't get a cheaper M* degree here. You're an international student so this won't affect you as much but being a third world applicant and getting a funded position at HDS speaks to your ability, what HDS sees in you, and what they believe that you can offer their student body. I've never lived in Cambridge or Leuven so I can't speak to costs. I lived on the Isle of Man for two years and as part of that process the diocese had someone sit down with me, over Skype, and do the visa paperwork. There's ways to frame resources so that you don't need to have $22,000 in a bank account but rather have access to it. I don't know if HDS has someone that can help with this but I suspect so. I know some of my international classmates at Vanderbilt from Africa and Asia did similar things too. On a US visa you'll be entitled to work up to 20 hours a week when classes are in session and 37.5 when they are not - not sure about Belgium/EU.

They're waiting to see: 1) if any of their big offers go elsewhere or 2) if they have enough scholarship/endowment funds leftover to bother with another redistribution to those that accepted. #1 happens so sometimes their stipend offers go to a secondary candidate. While I was at YDS we never let the runner up candidates know that they're on a list for boost to funding. Too many broken hearts #2 almost never happens. It's far more likely that they'll bank the funds to earn a little extra $ over the school year. The argument is usually that runner ups didn't wow them enough on the first pass so it's unlikely that anything has changed. So, they'd rather save the money for next year on the off chance that they want to extend an additional 100% + $ offer to a candidate. TL;DR - I think it's unlikely that they'll increase your offer.

Welcome @TreyDavis! I'm glad to answer whatever questions you may have, as countless others will be too! That's quite the spread of schools! Different geographical areas, denominations, academic specialties, etc. What are you looking for out of a school and where do you see yourself, if you could put yourself there? North Carolina is home for me so I can speak to WFU and Duke from multiple perspectives, inside and outside their halls. Considering that you're an Episcopalian and a solid episcopal seminary isn't on the list (YDS has BDS, I know but slightly different beast), what are you aspirations?

Only if you feel that it's important to understanding something about you that can't be conveyed in a required place. Everyone is a little different but sometimes optional or "excess" material isn't read by your app reader.

What are you wavering on? They're both great schools (obviously).

Adcoms don't have access to how your M* was paid for. If you attended a school with a named scholarship and included it on your PS, that's something they could google or might even know off the top of their head. Otherwise, financial aid and admissions (for most schools) are kept in two distinct offices for 1) logistical purposes and 2) money shouldn't factor into an admissions decision. When it comes to real PhD programs (real being ones that you're not paying for), absolutely no one in admissions and/or faculty care about how much debt you have. They also have no way of finding out without severely going out of their way for that info and raising suspicions. I would say that performance is all that matters but that's not entirely true. Fit is really the big thing that matters but fit is an all encompassing term for how you've performed, if your prospective advisor can put with your personality and vice versa, the level of curiosity you exhibit, your ability to grow and be receptive to ideas, etc.

As a whole, GPA isn't that important for most M.Div programs. They review people holistically and understand that people come from all walks of life. That said, divinity school is a graduate program so if your GPA is particularly bad (around a 2.0 out of 4.0), then a sentence or two about how you improved your grades and the step(s) you've taken to make sure you don't repeat bad grades would be helpful. Don't spend more than 1-2 sentences on this though!

You've pretty much exhausted your options, as far as funding from official school sources. I'd take the Director at his word that they'll be proactive if more funding opens up. If you want to extend the deadline by a month and that's helpful for you, go for it! Once you accept an offer you're also accepting the financial aid offer that comes with it. So, they're under no real incentive to increase an offer after you accept. Now, don't read that as they won't increase the offer if you accept now - there's no way that you, i, or even him know that yet. Maybe he does know that he won't increase the offer but I know Todd and he's a super x100 nice guy so I know he wouldn't lie about this. There are some steps you can take to minimize costs too, when available. For example, I know Duke Divinity has a Friendship House where you have your own bedroom and bathroom. I was involved in the same project that opened up at VDS. We had a couple of married and cohabiting couples that lived together. My rent by agreeing to live there went from about $900/month to $350 and I lived there with my partner. I don't know about Duke's policy with married/cohabiting couples but I bring it up since you have a second party in your profile pic.

Ultimately a PhD from Duke will open far more doors for you than PTS. Some of this will depend on what kind of school you want to teach in but even then, Duke will open more doors, and a larger variety of them, than PTS. Every school is facing problems with their graduates landing tenure track jobs out of the gate or within 1-2 years. That said, I know of about half a dozen recent PTS theology (PhD) grads that were doing 2-3 postdoc programs* (so anywhere from 2-6 years) before they landed a tenure-track job at even virtually unknown schools. Three of them "gave up" and moved to the UK to work at large universities that cater to conservative students that come for the DPhil and return home, generally to a church job. *Some of these were official postdoc programs. Others were designed to run for 1-3 years and then you're expected to move on but weren't officially classified as seeking postdocs.

Sorry to hear about Oxford, that's a bummer. I haven't been a student at Duke but have been to the campus and am friends with MTS and MDiv graduates. I can speak limitedly about the culture at the Div School and the public problems that the school has faced, most of which you can google. I've never known Duke Divinity to offer summer courses. They have a list of summer courses but its for ordained clergy to brush up on their skills and knowledge. The website says course credit is not permissible. You *might* be able to get an independent study approved and do it over the summer but I don't know. You need permission to take 5 courses a semester and even if you got it every semester, I don't see you being able to knock a semester off that way. It'd be a lot of hurdles but you could inquire about doing summer courses at another divinity school and transferring them in.

In my opinion, your advisor shouldn't work exactly within your interests. They're going to be biased about how the work should be done and what kind of scholar you should be. I've seen this myself and had faculty tell me as well, professors who tend to take on a mentee within their exact subfield tend to produce shoddy scholars b/c that student is a mini-them, rather than fostering their own curiosity. Program A is a bit of a unicorn. Usually the best fit for your interests is either 1) aloof and/or 2) an asshole. Also, there's a bit of a risk in placing your development in the hands of one person. If they leave, turn out to suck in some way, die, etc - you're up a proverbial creek. Increasingly universities don't hire someone with the same sub/field as the recently departed and hires are taking an increasingly longer time. Program B and C are probably the best/ideal fit, IMO. Program D could be awesome, depending on the university. Religious Studies is already a very diverse field and some schools are better about fostering this. The big negative is that if you dive too deep or too broad in your ancillary departments, your eventually employer may come to say that you can't really do any of the fields that well. This depends heavily on the school, the department(s) in question, and eventual employer. I've seen solid applicants, as a student on a Search Committee, rejected because the committee found them 1) too specialized, 2) not specialized enough, and/or 3) lacking a foundation that would allow them to teach introductory courses that senior faculty no longer want to do.

As a YDS student at least 50% of that term's courses must be YDS courses. Students are encouraged to take courses in other Yale schools and departments, provided they meet your course of study and/or vocational goals. While I was there you only needed the course instructor's permission. There was talk of also adding your advisor's permission but I don't know where that is. After taking four courses in the same department or school you'll trigger a Professional Studies Committee review. For the vast majority of students you won't need to worry about this, outside of the standard PSC review you'll have as a divinity student that is a mere formality. In the case of a PSC review because of a student taking a lot of courses over in Religion or say Forestry, the committee will decide if the courses you're taking are relevant to your degree and vocational interests. They have the right to block further courses outside of YDS or even "encourage" that you change degrees but this card is rarely played. On a subjective level: MDiv and MTS students are generally welcomed into RS courses. It depends but the vast majority of faculty will NOT lower requirements or expectations, and they WILL tell you that you're not cutting it and should return to the YDS and focus your energies there. If a professor is taking the time to remind you that the Add/Drop deadline is approaching, read between the lines with what they're telling you. Like a lot of faculty in Religious Studies, they have their own religious beliefs and opinions, and they're also interested in their students outside the classroom. Seize every opportunity to grab coffee with them or chat about the real world. They'll probably ask you some probing questions to size you up and see how deeply you've thought about things. Like anyone else, they're testing the waters before they open up to you and connect on a personal level. Advanced Yale undergraduates in your courses (it'll happen but it's rare'ish) may have a negative opinion of YDS students, FYI. They know full well that the admissions rate for M* students is drastically higher than theirs and by their standard, you didn't earn your spot. Largely ignore the assholes but most of them are super chill.

As a newer episcopal priest myself, here's some things to think over: 1) Ultimately it's going to come down to your bishop. There are minimum guidelines/objectives that all bishops must follow but they have significant freedom in how they meet these guidelines/objectives. Some dioceses have internal formation teams where you study under a priest(s) and fill in holes in your preparation. Some bishops will take your MA/MTS and just send you to do an Anglican year. Some take you as you are and limit your ministry. Some won't ordain you unless you have a M.Div, no ifs, ands, or buts! Unfortunately it's inconsistent and will depend on their and the COM's mood. Getting through the bishop is, IMO, the easy part. Getting through your PDC (Parish Discernment Committee) and the COM (Commission on Ministry) is the struggle because you're bound to have at least 1-2 people in each group who are stuck in the 1950s model of ministry and worldview. These people will create busy work and throw shit tasks at you just to see if you'll play their game. Just take a deep breath, remind yourself that this process isn't a reflection on/of you, and cross their tasks off. Thank them, pump up their ego when needed to keep them quasi on your side, and move on. Fighting them isn't the hill you want to die on. 2) Decide which of these two options is the most important: PhD or ordination. Do that thing and focus your energies on it. Do the second one as you can. Either of these will be difficult part-time, certainly more so getting a PhD. If you get your PhD at a seminary or divinity school it'll likely put you around episcopal academics and/or priests. 3) You can take the usual Anglican courses that would constitute an Anglican year (history, ethics, theology, liturgy, etc) for personal growth if you want. If the school accepts you to take the course, that's all that matters. You don't need the bishop's permission to take a class. DO NOT though ever frame your conversation with the PDC, COM, or bishop as you taking these courses because you want to be a priest and decided to get a head start. They'll take that as you having already decided rather than discerning. The standard model in TEC (The Episcopal Church) is that you go through a year long discernment process and if they, and you, discern a call to seminary, you sit down with your bishop and they give you a list of schools that they're willing to let you attend. You visit and apply to those and then both parties make a final decision. If you deviate from that it only creates hurdles for you to jump over. Your next step is to sit down with the priest of your church and tell them that you're discerning a call to ordination. The standard is that you need to be a member in good standing and an active member of the congregation for one year before you can have this conversation. Most bishops will not deviate from this. I have heard of some making slight compromises like being a member and active for six months but then the PDC must meet for six months too. I also have known of seminarians who were about to graduate and their bishop "dropped" them for whatever reason. In those cases you go "Bishop Shopping" to find one to adopt/buy you. Your situation doesn't seem likely to fall into this kind of situation. You'll definitely be told to find a church, be active for a year, then talk about discernment.

All of the schools generally extend their most generous offers for MDiv students. Most of the top schools were started for the education of clergy and that's an identity that they still take nominally serious. Most of their MDiv graduates will go onto relatively low paying jobs but community development and social work related, which the school indirectly benefits from. So, it's free marketing for them. Their MTS graduates that go onto PhD studies will likely attend a funded school and live a reasonably more comfortable life. So while those that show significant promise will be "taken care of," that isn't always extended to everyone else because there isn't as much of a benefit to the school.

What are your hope(s) for work/life after school? It depends on what you want to do too. There are a handful of Nones and religious but non-Christian at YDS but it is still a largely Christian school. Union is still largely Presbyterian and UCC but a sizeable number of students use Union's connections and locations to get into activism and non-profit work on the national and international circuit rather than traditional ministry. I'd drop HDS from the list too.

Emory is a fine school. I don't know anyone that has graduated from Emory with this degree though so I can't speak to that. If you're wanting to go onto a Ph.D. with a focus on pastoral care, most of these programs are going to expect a M.Div and sizeable CPE experience.

VDS offers stipends to maybe 4-6 students. While I was there they were only offered to URMs (Underrepresented Minorities), and they all had multiple URM identities. There's no official housing support from VDS, at all. This may have changed since I left but I'm pretty active with VDS communities and haven't heard of this. Now, there is a Disciples House by campus that VDS students live in as part of an intentional community but you likely need to apply now for it. Rent is super cheap in comparison to other nearby options. I had some VDS friends that landed jobs in Residence Life as RAs since that position is open for VDS students - free single room, $200/month or so stipend. We debate here all the time if HDS or YDS is more academic than the other and which is less-seminary. I come down on HDS being less seminary and fostering academic achievement but I have best friends who would fight me over this. I had a classmate that graduated from VDS and applied to law schools afterwards. He ended up at Columbia but said the people at Harvard and Yale were really turned off by his detour to divinity school.

I don't know what it is about philosophy but it brings out the worst in students - really, just the males. Well, I do know what it is and it's a bit of a hyperbole but every philosophy class I've been in has caused me to go drink afterwards. I should clarify that the dean provided no numbers of those that applied, subfields, etc. The competition to transition from M* to PhD isn't easy or automatic but possible. I know 3-4 Chicago M* graduates in my program that left because of the same reasons that @marXian cited and opted not to apply to UoC for their PhD.

I'd pick the one that you want to really be at and ask. YDS and HDS adcoms have been known to compare notes You can ask both but if they were to learn that you asked two schools, I can imagine some on staff feeling rubbed the wrong way. In asking, just be honest and to the point. You really want to be at X-School for these three reasons (justify the school - what they offer, what you offer them). Tell them that VDS is offering more money and you want to be a responsible applicant when it comes to pursuing theological education in relation to costs, but you'd rather be at their school. Like anything, flatter them a little but not too much, express some humbleness and gratitude for the initial offer, etc., but that you'd like to be reconsidered for any additional aid or funding avenues. If you're wanting to use the MTS as a stepping stone to PhD, personally, I'd choose HDS, esp. when you throw BTI into the mix. Also, Boston/Cambridge is just a really cool area to spend a couple years in. Also, Nashville is ridiculously expensive, esp. for anything even remotely close to the school. The students there at VDS while I was there that wanted to live in the heart of VU and downtown Nashville's scene were piling in 1-2 per bedroom and/or taking out loans and paying $2k/month in rent for studio apartments.

Did you submit the form for financial aid before March 1st? If not, I'd get it in ASAP. If you mailed it in after March 1st, your offer will come later, once they have an idea of what's left over. It's certainly possible it hasn't posted yet. It's also possible that they aren't awarding you any aid but they tend to give a little something to everyone. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard of them not giving aid to someone.

Yes. I suspect as a woman of color they're use to having certain things assumed of them, and their capabilities. So they just make sure everyone uses their title, I don't know. I tried to talk to them about the encounter several days later while on campus but they weren't having it. We haven't spoken since and when we run into each other at conferences she intentionally goes the other way.

I don't want to jinx you but Oxford accepts a lot of Americans and I mean probably most of them that apply. Funding on the other hand is next to impossible for US citizens. That said, if you're going to take out loans for the M*, I'd rather be at Oxford than Duke.