Requiring so many!

[nushi]

Hey everyone...

I'm applying to so many universities abroad, so my recommenders are getting frustrated with me, because I keep asking them for a lot of recommendation letters, & they have to log into many recommendation systems! One of my most important recommenders (my former supervisor) was so fed up with me she made me take many days off from work & go to her for a whole week, & then she made her secretary finish the recommendations with me (& her secretary got fed up with me too!).

I'm still having other universities to apply to. Is there a way to make the recommendations only once & submit them to all universities? Like a website or something that allows you to make recommendations only once or something...

[TakeruK]

Some programs have this. But the reality is that writing tons of letters is an expected part of the professor's job now. 

I would recommend that you do as much as possible to make the lives of your recommenders easier. This means deciding on what universities you will apply to and noting down their deadlines and then providing a one-page summary with all of the dates and schools. This helps them plan their time. Once they write their letters, they just need 5-10 minutes to log in and upload so if they see that you have 3 things due Dec 15 and 5 things due Dec 20, they might know to put aside 1.5 hours on Dec 13 and upload it all at once, for example. 

It sounds like you might be making requests one at a time, as they come up, and that could be very frustrating. It also means they don't know when the next one is coming up. So if you still have more schools to apply to, I'd take some time right now to figure out all the remaining deadlines and make the remaining requests all at once, promising that this is the last set.

[MarineBluePsy]

Yep the more organized you are the easier it is for them to do.  Some professors are fine writing one letter and copy/pasting, others want to write a custom letter for each program.  It also helps if you give them plenty of notice so they don't have to work last minute when they have other things to do.  When I applied all of my deadlines were late November/early December, so I met with my LOR professors at the beginning of September.  I had my list of schools with deadline, what info they wanted, any special forms, my CV, my SOP, and how it needed to be sent.  Then I followed up every few weeks to make sure everything was going smoothly and that they didn't need anything else.  I still ran into last minute hassles (like having to drive 2 hours away to pick up LORs and then getting to the post office 20 minutes to closing to have them overnighted), but it could have been way worse.  Also I thanked them constantly throughout the process and notified them when I got interviews and acceptances.

[Arkhy]

Totally agree with MatineBluePsy here.

I applied to 30 schools, but I made a list and said that I'm applying to a lot of schools from the very beginning. I sent the list to my recommenders and we synced with them. Also thanked them a lot, yeah, I know, it's very uncomfortable. Also I sent the most important ones first, so that if my recommenders were fed up at least I had those =)

[GreenEyedTrombonist]

I applied to 7 and one of my writers said that was a lot. One of the things I did was create a document with each school listed along with their deadline (and organized by deadline), which professors I was interested working with there, the name of the degree and department, a paragraph about how I was a good fit for the program, and any other pertinent details I thought could help. 

[pinoysoc]

12 hours ago, nushi said:

Hey everyone...

I'm applying to so many universities abroad, so my recommenders are getting frustrated with me, because I keep asking them for a lot of recommendation letters, & they have to log into many recommendation systems! One of my most important recommenders (my former supervisor) was so fed up with me she made me take many days off from work & go to her for a whole week, & then she made her secretary finish the recommendations with me (& her secretary got fed up with me too!).

I'm still having other universities to apply to. Is there a way to make the recommendations only once & submit them to all universities? Like a website or something that allows you to make recommendations only once or something...

I feel your pain! I remember doing the Common Application when I was applying to undergrad. However, I don't think there's a centralized way to do it. I know (in the US) some disciplines like Public Health has SOPHAS, Health Administration has MHASA, then Dental & Medical Schools HAVE the ADSA/AMA centralized application system. I agree with @GreenEyedTrombonist that you need to figure out your personal way of managing these things. From what my recommenders have done, they pretty much wrote a general LOR that talks about everything. They just asked me to send them CV so that they update their letters from the last time they submitted it. 

[ltr317]

There are paid third-party dossier services like Interfolio that some institutions actually require.  It's really convenient for professors to upload the LORs just once, and you can send them to target schools yourself.  It's free to sign on but there is a single cost for one year (not expensive) if you want to send documents to different places.   

[MarineBluePsy]

Interfolio is a good idea if your programs will accept LORs through that service.  None of my programs did and their primary reason was that Interfolio didn't allow them to add their own supplemental form for professors to complete.

[nushi]

Thank you so much guys for your detailed responses. Maybe professors here in Egypt are not as used to LORs as professors outside. Despite of me writing all my LORs upon their request, they feel frustrated at having to log on to application systems & filling out some questions! Universities here in Egypt don't require LORs, maybe that's why they're not much comfortable with them!

[skhann]

I'm in the same boat even though I'm not applying to dozens of schools. The problem lies with many programs plainly refusing to accept Interfolio. Foreign applicants face more difficulties in arranging LOR and getting them uploaded through the official institutional email of the recommenders. Some don't even use institutional emails in the first place. Still, I think even professors in the US would be fed up if they have to submit more than 6-7 letters at the maximum. Why don't you manage  your LOR writers in such a way that one doesn't have to write more than 8-10? Asking for 15+ letters is too much for anyone, even if he or she is the nicest person in the world.

P.S. There is a massive need for centralizing graduate admissions or at least allowing Interfolio etc. Don't know why most schools are hellbent against it. Don't they feel the pain of their fellow faculty members in other schools? It's mutual anyway.

[MarineBluePsy]

I'd rather see the LOR component eliminated completely.  To me its as pointless as references for employers.  Of course you're going to pick people who will say good things about you, so really what is the point?  I think you learn a lot more about someone during the interview weekend.

[skhann]

@MarineBluePsy Copy that! LOR are totally useless. Besides they can strain the relationship between the referee and the referred in some cases. One has to walk a tight rope, especially for multiple cycles.

[Eigen]

LoRs are far from useless. In fact, they're one of two parts of the application that's worth anything- the letters and the personal statement/research statement. 

The problem with Interfolio comes with not being able to easily customize letters. When I write letters for my students, I have one general letter that I then customize to each school and program. 

Also, having used Interfolio from all 3 perspectives... There are some nice thighs about it, but a good application system from the school is just as easy if not more so. 

[skhann]

@Eigen Thanks for your input, professor. The useless part was about the futility of the process as students naturally choose those writers that can give them the best of recommendations. That's why I can't get why the adcomms are obsessed about the letters. A detailed interview over Skype can provide a better assessment of the applicant or even an additional essay etc. No?

Also what about the fatigue aspect of having to write so many letters? I've heard some faculty members grousing about the entire process. Foreign applicants/referees are particularly fussy about the entire process and one can't blame them. Obviously one can't generalize but the process does look tedious from all sides of the equation.

[spamhaus]

@skhann You are potentially missing the fact that even if you choose a letter writer who will write a good letter (which is expected!), what they say is more important than the fact that they think you are amazing. People reading those letters care about your specific interactions with that letter writer. If you conducted research with the individual, what roles did you play in the research? Were you independent or did you need constant guidance? Did you take a leadership role, or were you simply following the instructions of others? Etc.

Those are the most important details in the LOR, rather than simply "do you like this person"?

[skhann]

@spamhaus You're right but then again the issue of transparency comes up. As the OP mentioned, the referees are not even writing the letters themselves. And this doesn't happen in foreign countries alone. In an ideal world, a recommender will be happy to write the perfect letter tailored to the intended program. In reality, some do that and others don't. It's a mixed bag really and hence shouldn't be prioritized in the application process. Just my two cents.

[Eigen]

Honestly, the ability to get a letter writer to care enough to take the time to write a detailed and personal letter also matters. It can be hard for students coming from vastly different cultures with respect to recommendations, but it's honestly obvious when a recommender didn't write the letter, or when they had a student write the draft themselves. 

And while most people try not to hold that against the student, it does send up a red flag- it means that in the time they were an undergraduate, they didn't have anyone that knew them well enough and was invested enough in their future to take the time to write a recommendation. And yes, students choose the person who can write them the best recommendation- but the best recommendation I can write for some students isn't the same as others. 

As to recommendation fatigue, part of this comes down to norms. When I talk to my students, we discuss how many schools they're applying to, and I personally strongly recommend that they don't apply to more than 10, and usually closer to 5. It's hard to write the quality of application needed to successfully get into a top school if you apply to 30 places. It's also unlikely that there are 30 schools that have the fit of research interests and department culture that you would thrive in.

And an interview over Skype can tell a lot, but that's a secondary screening tool, not a primary one. Also, a short interview over Skype won't tell me the same things as a letter written by a professor that's known a student for 3-4 years and can talk about growth and their work in a variety of situations. 

If a department gets 300-400 applicants, they're not going to Skype interview each of them. They'll cull through and find the ones that look most likely to succeed and fit at the school, then do Skype interviews with those. And when culling, letters are important. They tell the things that are crucial for graduate school (work ethic, work as part of a team, motivation, intellectual curiosity) that aren't seen in any other part of the application.

[khigh]

1 hour ago, skhann said:

@Eigen Thanks for your input, professor. The useless part was about the futility of the process as students naturally choose those writers that can give them the best of recommendations. That's why I can't get why the adcomms are obsessed about the letters. A detailed interview over Skype can provide a better assessment of the applicant or even an additional essay etc. No?

Also what about the fatigue aspect of having to write so many letters? I've heard some faculty members grousing about the entire process. Foreign applicants/referees are particularly fussy about the entire process and one can't blame them. Obviously one can't generalize but the process does look tedious from all sides of the equation.

Honestly, I went to a SLAC and my primary advisor wrote a total of one recommendation letter in 3 years. If I get into the one program I applied to, I will have to give a lot of credit to my writers. One was my advisor- I did an independent study/directed reading with him, he was the faculty advisor for many of my clubs, and I spent all four years in his office working on various projects. He is an alum of the program I am applying to. One was the department chair- I also worked closely with him and he was co-faculty advisor for clubs and I traveled with him to conferences. The third was the University President- I was Student Government Vice President my Junior Year and President my Senior Year, so I served on 15 university committees from Academic Appeals (actually did this one for four years) to President's Planning and Student Activities Funding and Faculty Senate as the student rep.

Do you know how difficult it is to craft relationships like that in four years? I was on campus 14-16 hours a day, especially in my last 2 years. They will be able to tell the adcomm exactly what my strengths and weaknesses are. Will other people have this kind of letter writer? No.  Many people would rather go to undergrad at a large state uni or an Ivy, but you aren't going to get the same relationships as at a SLAC. I graduated with 6 people in my program. 

[Eigen]

FWIW, I'm at a SLAC, and I write a lot more recommendations than that- but well over half of our students go on to graduate programs, most at top 10 programs. Strong letters are one of the reasons they're able to do that. 

I'll have had our average major that I'm writing for in 3-4 classes, another 2-3 labs, they may have done a summer of research with me (or more), I've traveled with them to conferences, I've seen them work on committees and in student organizations, and many of them have TA'd a class or lab for me. It means I can write a strong 2 page letter covering how they work in multiple situations, and can tell colleagues at an R1 exactly why they should choose them as a student. 

[khigh]

14 minutes ago, Eigen said:

FWIW, I'm at a SLAC, and I write a lot more recommendations than that- but well over half of our students go on to graduate programs, most at top 10 programs. Strong letters are one of the reasons they're able to do that. 

I'll have had our average major that I'm writing for in 3-4 classes, another 2-3 labs, they may have done a summer of research with me (or more), I've traveled with them to conferences, I've seen them work on committees and in student organizations, and many of them have TA'd a class or lab for me. It means I can write a strong 2 page letter covering how they work in multiple situations, and can tell colleagues at an R1 exactly why they should choose them as a student. 

It's a regional in a military town.  The average age of the student there is 28 and most are military, retired military, military spouses, or green-to-gold.  It has one of the top 10 ROTC programs in the USA. However, most people are there for their BA/BS and leave. I'm in the humanities, so we don't have the same numbers as psych or the sciences.

[Eigen]

1 hour ago, khigh said:

It's a regional in a military town.  The average age of the student there is 28 and most are military, retired military, military spouses, or green-to-gold.  It has one of the top 10 ROTC programs in the USA. However, most people are there for their BA/BS and leave. I'm in the humanities, so we don't have the same numbers as psych or the sciences.

Sure, just didn't want people to think it was universal such that they'd feel bad if they were asking more than that (one of the worries in this thread). Most of my senior colleagues write for around 30+ students each year, I'm sitting at around 10ish right now and expect that to sharply shoot up over the next few years as my younger students graduate.

[rising_star]

I've sent out a bunch of rec letters this year. What I enjoy about doing is highlighting things that the student themselves hasn't/can't in their SoP due to space limitations. So, I'll write in greater detail about a project they did or a time they handled a difficult situation well or something they did that pushed themselves outside their comfort zone and how they succeeded. Alternately, I'll explain someone's grades (e.g., why a student failed a course and what they learned from it, or how that failure changed their path) or personal life circumstances if necessary (e.g., taking an overload to graduate early for financial reasons, which of course inhabits one's extra and co-curricular opportunities). All of that is valuable for the admissions committee and not something the applicant is likely to share in their own materials or in a 15-30 min Skype interview where everyone is being asked the same questions.

As someone who has been on the job market, I've done a number of Skype interviews. Trust me when I say that they don't always give you the chance to shine in the way you might want as an applicant, in part because there are 3-7 people asking questions, you can't know the questions in advance, and they want everyone to answer the same questions in the same order. And, having been on a search committee, I can say that doing 4 straight hours of 15 minute interviews is exhausting and all the candidates start to blur together, which you hate but also can't entirely avoid. There's no world in which I'd do Skype interviews with 50+ people unless it was specifically for a research project and there was no other way to collect those data.

[nushi]

It sounds from your replies that LOR's are like a culture in the US. But the situation is not the same outside, & I'm talking specifically about mine in Egypt. There are a lot of problems here concerning LOR's. First, this requirement is not made for universities inside Egypt, only those who have to apply to universities abroad ask professors for such LOR's, so professors are not used to it, & they don't usually know how to write them, let alone to write them in English.

All the professors I asked for LOR's asked me to write them myself, not because they don't know me well, on the contrary, I have a very good relationship with two of them, & they constantly tell me that my thesis was one of the best thesis they ever supervised. But they're just not knowledgeable about LOR's.

Additionally, I realize the importance of LOR's for showing how active the student is in many projects & all. But that is not readily available to students in many universities around the world. For ex., all of my three recommenders had taught me in my undergraduate years, but they can't remember that, because that has been 10 years ago, & classes consisted of over 50 students. I was very keen on sitting up-front & making myself recognized by the professor through questions & discussions, but this is not enough for them to remember. And there were no other personal activities to make a direct relationship between the professor & student.

If I were appointed in the university, perhaps it would have been easier for me to be recognized by taking part in research projects & activities. But I work outside the university, so I haven't got the chance to take part in these.

The academic culture is not the same everywhere in the world, sadly, that's why LOR's are more difficult for people from countries where they're not well-known.

[Eigen]

It's understandable that it's more difficult when you move academic cultures. It's similarly difficult for someone coming from the US system to go to, say, EU or Oz. Different countries can have starkly different systems and expectations. 

But that doesn't exactly feed into your idea that the US should stop requiring LoRs (or valuing them highly) because other countries don't. 

[nushi]

I never said that US universities should stop using LOR's or not giving them a high value. I was just wondering if there's a system online that could combine LOR's for several universities in one time! I don't know from where did you get that I'm asking for this!

All in all, to be fair, admissions committee should not give much value to LOR's of international applicants, or at least consider how the situation is different for us, & that if it's evident that the student was the one who wrote the letters, they shouldn't underestimate the student, because requiring LOR's in other countries is different from the way it is known in the US.