The COVID-19 effect on admissions & funding

[mathinduction]

4 hours ago, Paulcg87 said:

Congrats on Stanford :) Also, same here about the math/quant training. My school is being very ambiguous about the fall term but Canada is also significantly more cautious than the USA so if I had to bet right now it would be that we'll be online this fall and in person for the winter (spring) term. 

We also have a math/quant training beginning in early-mid August, but there's been nothing about whether it will be online yet. My program's university only just announced that they're shifting commencement a couple days ago after most colleges had already done so, so I'm expecting any announcement to come relatively late. But, based on what I know, I'd be pretty surprised if fall semester ends up being in person although hopefully everything ends up being alright for the spring. 

[sloth_girl]

16 hours ago, Paulcg87 said:

Congrats on Stanford :) Also, same here about the math/quant training. My school is being very ambiguous about the fall term but Canada is also significantly more cautious than the USA so if I had to bet right now it would be that we'll be online this fall and in person for the winter (spring) term. 

I'm of course disappointed because in-person is obviously better, but saving on rent/childcare for a bit is nice too? What a weird year!

[Paulcg87]

5 hours ago, sloth_girl said:

I'm of course disappointed because in-person is obviously better, but saving on rent/childcare for a bit is nice too? What a weird year!

Such a strange year (and time) to be starting a PhD! But yes, agree with you 100% - I’m in a very similar situation to you (school is in an urban, high cost area) and I’ll actually save significant rent/cost of living money if even the first term is online.  I’d also rather have everything in person than online, but I guess I’m not losing any sleep over the possibility because this is going to be a 5+ year endeavour so even if it’s a full term or a year, it’s not like I won’t be on campus eventually. 

[S-Kyo]

Hey guys, one of my friend who is supposed to start her phd in philosophy in a US university, received a news that her program will defer 2020 admissions to 2021. She normally received fully funded offer but now that is the situation she is in. I was wondering if something would happen in our field, political science. 

Is this decision of the department or the university? I think that seems a department decision, but I am not sure.

Do you guys think this is a unique case or we may see such decisions from other universities or departments?

 

 

[mathinduction]

35 minutes ago, S-Kyo said:

Hey guys, one of my friend who is supposed to start her phd in philosophy in a US university, received a news that her program will defer 2020 admissions to 2021. She normally received fully funded offer but now that is the situation she is in. I was wondering if something would happen in our field, political science. 

Is this decision of the department or the university? I think that seems a department decision, but I am not sure.

Do you guys think this is a unique case or we may see such decisions from other universities or departments?

 

 

I'm really sorry to hear that news about your friend. I would think it's likely a department decision although am also not 100% sure. My sense from all the programs I virtually "visited" is that in the event that we cannot go in person in the fall, they will simply move everything to an online format (I would be relatively surprised if they decided to defer a cohort instead). However, these were all smaller programs at well-funded private universities, so I am not sure whether public or larger colleges (that will likely be even more adversely affected economically) might end up making a different decision. I suspect that we might, unfortunately, not know that much more until June or July when we have a better sense of the status of COVID-19. 

[uchenyy]

2 hours ago, mathinduction said:

My sense from all the programs I virtually "visited" is that in the event that we cannot go in person in the fall, they will simply move everything to an online format (I would be relatively surprised if they decided to defer a cohort instead).

This.

[Richelieu]

On 4/6/2020 at 4:16 PM, Richelieu20 said:

Unfortunately I have to refute what you are saying because a school that offered me a position has just rescinded its offers for all the political science admits. I don't think anything is crystal clear at the moment. Let alone admissions and funding, schools generally avoid giving certain answers to questions regarding next terms.  

Quoting myself and updating for folks who messaged me to show support.

The university that rescinded all the offers because of COVID19 has actually contacted me to ask me if I would consider attending their MA program. Having got 4 other offers (but having had rejected all of them) and already having an MA in PoliSci, I rejected their offer. Thankfully, another university that I got admitted offered me my position back. I gladly accepted it. 

At the end, it (kinda) all worked out for me. It was a whirlwind of a year and an application cycle. I will be back next application cycle for sure, hopefully with more experience. 

Thank you again everyone who showed support! Best of luck!

[Paulcg87]

I see that Trump is suspending immigration to the United States, as announced a few hours ago. Hoping this is clarified in the coming days and that it won't affect student visas. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Paulcg87

[Anik_91]

1 hour ago, Paulcg87 said:

I see that Trump is suspending immigration to the United States, as announced a few hours ago. Hoping this is clarified in the coming days and that it won't affect student visas. 

Aren't student visas considered non-immigrant? I am pretty sure it won't affect student visas given that international students are a big source of revenue for US higher education institutions. Trump has been eager to close the borders for immigrants for a while and the pandemic has given him a chance, but it's likely to be challenged.

[Paulcg87]

18 minutes ago, Anik_91 said:

Aren't student visas considered non-immigrant? I am pretty sure it won't affect student visas given that international students are a big source of revenue for US higher education institutions. Trump has been eager to close the borders for immigrants for a while and the pandemic has given him a chance, but it's likely to be challenged.

Like I said, I hope so. I'm not American but being from the country next door, I guess nothing surprises me anymore when Trump tweets something and it has unexpected consequences. 

[DrGonzzo]

This is all very unnerving for next year's prospective applicants like myself. I should have applied this year. Does anybody have a guess as to how this will effect next year's admissions?

[Paulcg87]

38 minutes ago, DrGonzzo said:

This is all very unnerving for next year's prospective applicants like myself. I should have applied this year. Does anybody have a guess as to how this will effect next year's admissions?

I think that next year's admission cycle will be more competitive, as others, including most of the "regulars" on this forum, have already speculated. With that said, it's not going to be some kind of apocalyptic scenario where everything is still shut down or online like it is right now. There WILL be a vaccine (most likely several, from different countries and manufacturers) and they will almost certainly be available a year from right now if not much sooner. This is a fact, and the vaccine(s) will be a gamechanger.

But what is more difficult to speculate on is the longer term economic effects of this shutdown and the worldwide recession that is currently occurring. Some economists seem to think that it will last years, others think it will be over in a few months. Personally, I hope the latter is true because we are all adversely affected by a bad economy in one way or another. Realistically, I think if the world is still in a recession during the next admissions cycle, there will be fewer scholarships and less overall funding, compounded by smaller PhD cohorts. Schools will have smaller endowments and departments and professors will have less institutional/government/private funding to spend. This will affect the social sciences disproportionately compared to certain other similar fields because social science PhD's are typically fully funded but similar professional programs are not, and as we saw during the last recession, similar professional programs (JD's, LLM's, MPP's, etc) actually had increased admissions and larger cohorts, so what might happen in other closely related fields isn't necessarily comparable to ours. 

As a side note, interesting article today in the WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-big-question-for-colleges-will-there-be-a-fall-semester-on-campus-11587474000) about online classes this fall. It's a paywall article (sorry) but if you have an iPhone and you're in North America you probably got this article for free today. It's worth a read. 

[munch22]

1 hour ago, DrGonzzo said:

This is all very unnerving for next year's prospective applicants like myself. I should have applied this year. Does anybody have a guess as to how this will effect next year's admissions?

This is going to make this significantly harder. There is nothing you can do about it now, unfortunately, but from the school side I know of multiple top 20 programs considering cutting their cohort size in half (and a few that are considering no graduate students next year, this isn’t definite yet and will probably follow the same path as Duke did this year). The squeeze on departments is more so than just state funding/department financial health- the restriction on elective surgeries for hospitals has but a financial bind on every university with an academic medical center. Next year will be the hardest year for admissions since the recession. 

[Paulcg87]

California State University Fullerton has announced it will only offer classes online this fall: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-04-21/cal-state-fullerton-cancels-in-person-fall-classes-online

From what I'm hearing, San Jose State University and other CSU campuses are either going fully or mostly online for this fall too. 

[uchenyy]

7 hours ago, Paulcg87 said:

California State University Fullerton has announced it will only offer classes online this fall: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-04-21/cal-state-fullerton-cancels-in-person-fall-classes-online

From what I'm hearing, San Jose State University and other CSU campuses are either going fully or mostly online for this fall too. 

Did you actually read the article? The university has not yet made this decision. Like most other institutions in the US, CSU wants its faculty to be ready to teach online, should the situation not be safe enough to hold in-person classes by then: 

“To make sure we are prepared for all variables, but with the goal that we can offer in-person instruction, we are asking our faculty to be prepared to start the semester teaching virtually.The university said it would be flexible and finalize its decision “as the facts and circumstances become clear.”

Come on, folks. Let's not use this forum to spread information that has not yet been confirmed. 

[Paulcg87]

4 hours ago, uchenyy said:

Did you actually read the article? The university has not yet made this decision. Like most other institutions in the US, CSU wants its faculty to be ready to teach online, should the situation not be safe enough to hold in-person classes by then: 

“To make sure we are prepared for all variables, but with the goal that we can offer in-person instruction, we are asking our faculty to be prepared to start the semester teaching virtually.The university said it would be flexible and finalize its decision “as the facts and circumstances become clear.”

Come on, folks. Let's not use this forum to spread information that has not yet been confirmed. 

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/22/sjsu-cal-state-east-bay-considering-hybrid-of-online-and-in-person-classes-for-fall/

"California State University Fullerton announced Tuesday it would begin the fall semester with online classes only, one of the first universities to signal its intention to keep the doors shut."

I did read the article. I read quite a few articles about this earlier today and I posted this one because I like the LA Times. It clearly left a lot out compared to the other articles and I mixed them up without catching that the others specifically state that CSU Fullerton is going online. It's an understandable mistake but it's not quite the dire spread of misinformation or baseless speculation that you seem to have accused me of in the tone of your comments. 

I created this specific thread to discuss COVID-19's impact; I believe it's a useful discussion and clearly so do others. We're all on edge about it, not just you. Everyone is struggling. None of us want this. I can understand your response and your logic/rationale, and I'm sorry the LA Times article isn't as useful as the other articles I'm posting here.

Additional sources:

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/21/839623300/cal-state-fullerton-announces-plans-for-a-virtual-fall-will-other-colleges-follo

https://www.ocregister.com/2020/04/20/cal-state-fullerton-announces-plans-to-start-fall-semester-with-virtual-classrooms/

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/cal-state-fullerton-classes-will-continue-online-during-fall-semester/

https://www.edsurge.com/news/2020-04-21-this-cal-state-campus-is-one-of-the-first-to-commit-to-online-only-classes-for-fall-2020

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Paulcg87

[Sigaba]

On 4/21/2020 at 5:26 PM, munch22 said:

There is nothing you can do about it now, unfortunately[.]

I respectfully disagree with this statement.

Aspiring graduate students can expand the range of their research from "In which departments/programs might I fit in" to include questions about the financial health of a university/university system. MOO, one's analysis may work better if one steps away from linear assumptions that are centered around disciplines and fields in favor of an approach that looks at revenue streams and expenses, that looks at the relationships between university leadership and academic departments. . 

In regards to the unknown economic impacts of COVID-19, one can find a comfortable balance between what economists are predicting with how institutions of higher education are preparing to respond to those impacts. Who is making an informed decision to run while others are asking "Do you think those bonds are going to hold that giant gorilla?"

IRT information sources, I would consult broadsheets sparingly. I would instead look for resources and platforms that are either directly connected to decision makers and consultants or sources that provide raw data. 

[munch22]

3 hours ago, Paulcg87 said:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/22/sjsu-cal-state-east-bay-considering-hybrid-of-online-and-in-person-classes-for-fall/

"California State University Fullerton announced Tuesday it would begin the fall semester with online classes only, one of the first universities to signal its intention to keep the doors shut."

I did read the article. I read quite a few articles about this earlier today and I posted this one because I like the LA Times. It clearly left a lot out compared to the other articles and I mixed them up without catching that the others specifically state that CSU Fullerton is going online. It's an understandable mistake but it's not quite the dire spread of misinformation or baseless speculation that you seem to have accused me of in the tone of your comments. 

I created this specific thread to discuss COVID-19's impact; I believe it's a useful discussion and clearly so do others. We're all on edge about it, not just you. Everyone is struggling. None of us want this. I can understand your response and your logic/rationale, and I'm sorry the LA Times article isn't as useful as the other articles I'm posting here.

Additional sources:

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/21/839623300/cal-state-fullerton-announces-plans-for-a-virtual-fall-will-other-colleges-follo

https://www.ocregister.com/2020/04/20/cal-state-fullerton-announces-plans-to-start-fall-semester-with-virtual-classrooms/

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/cal-state-fullerton-classes-will-continue-online-during-fall-semester/

https://www.edsurge.com/news/2020-04-21-this-cal-state-campus-is-one-of-the-first-to-commit-to-online-only-classes-for-fall-2020

 

I don’t see where it says it is confirmed they will be online in the fall from any quotes from the administration. It appears the journalists have extrapolated that. They are just making plans. 

[Paulcg87]

Just now, munch22 said:

I don’t see where it says it is confirmed they will be online in the fall from any quotes from the administration. It appears the journalists have extrapolated that. They are just making plans. 

"California State University Fullerton announced Tuesday it would begin the fall semester with online classes only, one of the first universities to signal its intention to keep the doors shut."

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/22/sjsu-cal-state-east-bay-considering-hybrid-of-online-and-in-person-classes-for-fall/

[munch22]

3 minutes ago, Paulcg87 said:

"California State University Fullerton announced Tuesday it would begin the fall semester with online classes only, one of the first universities to signal its intention to keep the doors shut."

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/22/sjsu-cal-state-east-bay-considering-hybrid-of-online-and-in-person-classes-for-fall/

That is a journalist extrapolating. Read the provosts update on Cal State Fullerton’s Website on April 22nd:

Clarification on fall semester from Provost Pamella Oliver:

It is the complete hope of Cal State Fullerton to have traditional instruction in the fall. But like every university in America, we are working through the many unknowns of the current pandemic.

There were reports I said that Fullerton is cancelling classes and going fully virtual for the fall. Let me be clear, that is false. What I said is -that we need to prepare for all variables.

http://coronavirus.fullerton.edu

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by munch22

[munch22]

1 hour ago, Sigaba said:

I respectfully disagree with this statement.

Aspiring graduate students can expand the range of their research from "In which departments/programs might I fit in" to include questions about the financial health of a university/university system. MOO, one's analysis may work better if one steps away from linear assumptions that are centered around disciplines and fields in favor of an approach that looks at revenue streams and expenses, that looks at the relationships between university leadership and academic departments. . 

In regards to the unknown economic impacts of COVID-19, one can find a comfortable balance between what economists are predicting with how institutions of higher education are preparing to respond to those impacts. Who is making an informed decision to run while others are asking "Do you think those bonds are going to hold that giant gorilla?"

IRT information sources, I would consult broadsheets sparingly. I would instead look for resources and platforms that are either directly connected to decision makers and consultants or sources that provide raw data. 

This was in reference to things being more competitive. Nothing you said changes the fact that there will still be fewer spots open to perspective students next year. 

[Paulcg87]

2 minutes ago, munch22 said:

That is a journalist extrapolating. Read the provosts update on Cal State Fullerton’s Website on April 22nd:

Clarification on fall semester from Provost Pamella Oliver:

It is the complete hope of Cal State Fullerton to have traditional instruction in the fall. But like every university in America, we are working through the many unknowns of the current pandemic.

There were reports I said that Fullerton is cancelling classes and going fully virtual for the fall. Let me be clear, that is false. What I said is -that we need to prepare for all variables.

http://coronavirus.fullerton.edu

 

 

 

Interesting, thanks for this. I guess literally every mainstream media source that reported on this and stated that this was "announced" extrapolated it incorrectly. I wonder if Oliver's response was damage control as a result of feedback/pushback from the media interpretation or something else. Regarding the rest of what I said, I'm re-posting what was stated by multiple sources ranging from local media to NPR. I resent the earlier implication by another user that I'm doing this to spread misinformation in any way. Quite a few other users here, including Dwar, have re-posted mainstream media articles regarding the pandemic's impact on higher ed. My point to everyone: please do not shoot the messenger or resort to condescension. We're all in this together, and the reason I created this thread is to discuss, not to patronize. 

[Sigaba]

Just now, munch22 said:

This was in reference to things being more competitive. Nothing you said changes the fact that there will still be fewer spots open to perspective students next year. 

My proposed method allows one to compete for those fewer spots more intelligently. If School A is a perfect fit but will have a shaky financial position, one could decide to focus on program that is not as ideal as one's top choice but has a better balance sheet.

I am beginning to wonder if you're seeking to tussle as a means of working off some nervous energy.

[Paulcg87]

Just now, Sigaba said:

I am beginning to wonder if you're seeking to tussle as a means of working off some nervous energy.

I am too. It seems like several users on here, including people I respect a great deal, are on edge right now. Maybe it was a mistake for me to create this thread. People are starting to get argumentative, patronizing and condescending for no particularly good reason. 

[munch22]

2 minutes ago, Paulcg87 said:

Interesting, thanks for this. I guess literally every mainstream media source that reported on this and stated that this was "announced" extrapolated it incorrectly. I wonder if Oliver's response was damage control as a result of feedback/pushback from the media interpretation or something else. Regarding the rest of what I said, I'm re-posting what was stated by multiple sources ranging from local media to NPR. I resent the earlier implication by another user that I'm doing this to spread misinformation in any way. Quite a few other users here, including Dwar, have re-posted mainstream media articles regarding the pandemic's impact on higher ed. My point to everyone: please do not shoot the messenger or resort to condescension. We're all in this together, and the reason I created this thread is to discuss, not to patronize. 

All good- almost all the articles you had posted said they were edited yesterday (probably based off the provost’s updated comments) so I think that caused some confusion. Definitely think adding those links contributes an important conversation about what is going to happen.