2021 Applicants Forum

[Ydrl]

30 minutes ago, caramelcarrottop said:

Yes, it was my first time applying.  I didn't realize that they were more interested in literary fiction rather than popular fiction.  Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  Also, I didn't know any better and didn't realize the multitude of schools out there that were fully funded.  Hence, I applied to the big name programs:  Iowa, Johns Hopkins, Michigan (Helen Zell), Brown, Cornell (I never sounded like any of the Cornell grads...looked at their youtube readings) and UC Irvine.  

There are some programs that aren't interested in literary fiction exclusively. I think @feralgrad writes horror??? Correct me if I'm wrong. I would look on this link: https://www.pw.org/mfa

It's not easy to find, but there are mentions of programs that don't mind or are interested in genre fiction as well. It's gonna take some searching for sure. I know this because I viewed every school in the US on their database in a state I wanted to live.

Cornell was intimidating in an exciting way to me. I also applied because of the youtube readings.

[turtlesfordays]

Acceptance rates at most schools (especially fully funded programs like many of the non-NYC big name schools) have acceptance rates of about 0.5-3% (based on what I was told in rejection letters this year and research from previous years). So I would say refrain from believing that any aspect of who you are is preventing you from getting in. There are just too few acceptances and too much subjectivity in writing to say for certain what would give you a better or worse chance. Still, for anyone applying again, the advice I always see from schools is that you should submit your best work. Don’t submit work that you just wrote because you probably won’t have a clear idea of its quality. Plan ahead, get feedback on your sample, and remember that most schools are looking for literary fiction (if you want to focus on popular or genre fiction you will have to really research to find the right schools for that). This is some of what I’ve learned from my research, I hope it is helpful!

[SMSM1229]

@Blackhole What time of day did they call you, if you don't mind me asking? Congratulations that is incredible  

[omgalexx]

3 hours ago, cecsav said:

I still haven't heard from University of New Mexico. 

I was rejected by them 2 weeks ago! Maybe that’s a good sign for you!

[Boomer not Ok]

I saw the Hunter prof say what he said AFTER I had applied. IMO their Youtubed Open House gave off a weird vibe. Since they publicly list their admits, as they pair them with established writers to do "research" for them, I tried to find some published work from their admits but couldn't find any. So I've no idea what they look for and I regretted applying there. As for the age thing, I'm not sure, but if you are past 40 I don't think it works for you, at least with funded programs. My only proof of this, though, is getting a waitlist at a mostly funded program (McNeese), but bear in mind this program only requests an SOP and writing submission. So, they had no idea about my age, recs, "quality" of undergrad institution, and since they don't charge to apply, I assume they get a fair amount of apps. But I could be wrong about the age thing, although I think most programs indicate the average age is mid to late 20s.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Boomer not Ok

[Ydrl]

25 minutes ago, Cristie said:

Please...barge (and you weren't)...this is the only way I'm going to learn and figure this all out. I'll take all the advice I can get! Bring it. Any word from Florida? Or did I miss that?

It took a lot of research both this year and last year. By a lot I mean I spent around 50 hours total doing program research. Last season was around 30 of those hours I would say, spent more time on that than I did school work.

Also Florida has been silent. I'm not entirely sure what's going on. I called them on Monday to make sure they even got my application, which they did. Carla still hasn't emailed me either, I emailed more than once for different reasons. Nothing.

I'm about to steel myself and just email the poetry program director to find out a timeline.

[M-Lin]

8 minutes ago, Boomer not Ok said:

I saw the Hunter prof say what he said AFTER I had applied. IMO their Youtubed Open House gave off a weird vibe. Since they publicly list their admits, as they pair them with established writers to do "research" for them, I tried to find some published work from their admits but couldn't find any. So I've no idea what they look for and I regretted applying there. As for the age thing, I'm not sure, but if you are past 40 I don't think it works for you, at least with funded programs. My only proof of this, though, is getting a waitlist at a mostly funded program (McNeese), but bear in mind this program only requests an SOP and writing submission. So, they had no idea about my age, recs, "quality of undergrad , and since they don't charge to apply. I assume they get a fair amount of apps. But I could be wrong about the age thing, although I think most programs indicate the average age is mid to late 20s.

What did the professor say? 

I applied to Hunter too and find their whole process extra-opaque, and the fact that they only give people a week to accept their offers (way before April 15) very weird. I don't know if that's still true, but that's what it says on the website. Don't know any other school that does this. I read two novels by Hunter recent grads last year and they both had merits. A Burning & Little Gods, if you want to check them out! 

Edited March 25, 2021 by M-Lin

[Ydrl]

Update, I emailed Mr. Hofmann from U Florida. I hope he responds, or anyone responds.

[Downtozero]

4 minutes ago, Boomer not Ok said:

But I could be wrong about the age thing, although I think most programs indicate the average age is mid to late 20s.

One thing that did come from the Iowa lawsuit discussed upthread is that we learned some demographic info about their app pool:

"The data provided to Thomson shows that, between 2013 and 2017, of the 5,061 fiction program applicants received by the workshop, only 135 were accepted. Three of the 287 applicants older than 41 were accepted. 

The workshop annually receives between 800 and 1,000 fiction applicants for the roughly 25 slots available, according to an email sent to Thomson by Steven Wehling, compliance coordinator for the UI Office of Equal Opportunity and Diversity. The median age for all applicants was 36, and the median age for accepted applicants was 34½."

That's just Iowa of course, but I'd bet it's a pretty close representation of the overall MFA landscape.

[Boomer not Ok]

1 minute ago, M-Lin said:

What did the professor say? 

I applied to Hunter too and find their whole process extra-opaque, and the fact that they only give people a week to accept their offers (way before April 15) very weird. I don't know if that's still true, but that's what it says on the website. Don't know any other school that does this. I read two novels by Hunter recent grads last year and they both had merits. A Burning & Little Gods, if you want to check them out! 

Thanks for the recs. Good to know. I only looked up current admits and could not find any of them publishing fiction in lit mags. It struck me as odd for a school this competitive 

[Boomer not Ok]

3 minutes ago, Boomer not Ok said:

Thanks for the recs. Good to know. I only looked up current admits and could not find any of them publishing fiction in lit mags. It struck me as odd for a school this competitive 

Forgot: the prof said he didn't think they had had any one over 40 and basically they look for younger people to "mold," if my memory serves. It seems like having a writing track record or voice already would not help you get into this program.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Boomer not Ok

[Boomer not Ok]

12 minutes ago, ariela luv said:

It boggles my mind that the Hunter guy had not heard about the Iowa lawsuit or known he was admitting to illegal age discrimination. I would have been skeptical that there is age discrimination, but for him. In his mind, it is just wasted resources to try to mold someone already solidified. 

There are state schools with cheap tuition that I'm sure don't discriminate. Of course, everyone would rather go to the 60 big shot fully funded programs. 

I agree. The optics of their youtube open house were just plain bad. I'm sure they didn't mean it, but it was mostly young white women projecting massive privilege.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Boomer not Ok

[koechophe]

5 hours ago, M-Lin said:

I, too, wonder what other sadistic schools have not notified other than BU and Columbia ?

Washington State University (MA in English--they've told me I wasn't in their initial round of acceptances, so I'm somewhere on an informal waitlist, but not high, I don't think) and University of Las Vegas (they told me they still haven't even done 1st round yet for the focus I picked. They have multiple focuses 

 

5 hours ago, Cristie said:

Let me know what you find. I went into this thinking I was a decent writer...apparently not-but I'm also a big rule breaker. I've only done workshops in school but I have been published more than once.

I also have been published a fair few times. I've been told, and experienced, that it's really not anything that will help/hurt you. 

I'd also be happy to swap work--but maybe in like 2 weeks, I'm in the middle of finals (my school is on a weird schedule). 

[M-Lin]

8 minutes ago, koechophe said:

Washington State University (MA in English--they've told me I wasn't in their initial round of acceptances, so I'm somewhere on an informal waitlist, but not high, I don't think) and University of Las Vegas (they told me they still haven't even done 1st round yet for the focus I picked. They have multiple focuses 

thumbs down to them for dragging it out ? i hope they tell you what's what soon!! 

[M-Lin]

34 minutes ago, Boomer not Ok said:

Thanks for the recs. Good to know. I only looked up current admits and could not find any of them publishing fiction in lit mags. It struck me as odd for a school this competitive 

i talked to a current student in an MFA program today and asked about what people do with publishing - if they submit short stories to lit mags in the course of the program or that's not really a thing. She just said it depended on the person. She did a little bit but now mainly focus on shaping a collection to send around. So maybe the people currently in the program are not doing the lit mag submission grind?

31 minutes ago, Boomer not Ok said:

Forgot: the prof said he didn't think they had had any one over 40 and basically they look for younger people to "mold," if my memory serves. It seems like having a writing track record or voice already would not help you get into this program.

oooh i remember that moment. I was on the Zoom live. it was kind of awkward... and they definitely think very highly of their own program (I'm sure a lot of faculty do of the programs they preside over) but somehow that pride came off a little bit off-putting to me. I did like the community spirit they showed in the open house though. and they're very proud that they're fully-funded. 

[Cristie]

43 minutes ago, Ydrl said:

Update, I emailed Mr. Hofmann from U Florida. I hope he responds, or anyone responds.

I'm all out of hearts (as usual) but I heart all that. And keeping my fingers crossed for you. I still haven't heard a thing from New Orleans--beats me and I know someone got accepted on the 18th for fiction. Do you know of anyone else applying to the College of Charleston? I haven't heard or seen a thing from/about them. 

[Boomer not Ok]

Yeah, I definitely got a very cliquey vibe from the admits. And since it's probably the most selective program to get into in NYC, they can rightly be proud of it.

[dillydally17]

Since the two people I turn to for creative/professional advice are telling me opposite things, I wanted to ask the internet: 
If this was your first time applying and you got into more than one fully funded programs, waitlisted at more than one fully funded program, but rejected by your 4 "dream" schools (Cornell, Brown, Hunter, IWW) would you:
A ) be grateful and accept the best offer you got this year
B ) read these results as a sign to roll the dice and apply again next year believing there will be fewer apps and your manuscript will be better, and you'll get actually into one of your dream schools.

After getting an encouraging personal rejection from Iowa (fiction), I honestly feel torn about this.  I really admire the people who apply 2,3, or more times and DO end up exactly where they want. But this process has given me months of nontrivial anxiety - and so does the thought of going through it again when I don't have to (and ultimately could get in nowhere). I feel like there's a relevant aphorism out there that would tell me what to do, but I don't have a good memory for that kind of thing lol. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by dillydally17
too much personal info

[teasel]

Hey guys, chiming in to give my two cents, for whatever its worth. I'm not on an admissions committee. This is just 100% my perspective, much of it subjective and based off of my last year of personal research. Take what's helpful, disregard what isn't. 

*don't publish your creative materials on a public forum. You might wish to revise and send to lit mags, contests, etc. and it's a great way to make a piece essentially unusable. While not everything is publishing material, why take the chance? There are folks who have had materials from their applications published in top tier magazines after the fact

*I don't know if adcoms are ageist, and anything we say is speculation at best (or as one person said, it's hard to prove either way). However, I think some folks in their 20's have an advantage in the sense that they often still have fresh contacts, mentors, counselors, letters of rec, etc... academic resources that are arguably much harder to gather when you've been out of school for awhile. Not saying it's always like this, or that it's fair, but it seems like an advantage. Ex: I considered reaching out to a professor I had a decade ago for a letter of rec, but there's no way it would have gone as far as a more recent writing mentor who could speak to what I was doing presently. That said, I think that older applicants have other advantages too, such as possibly more experiences to draw from, maybe more experience presenting themselves professionally, any number of things, really. Again, this is speculation. We're all on different paths, w/e age we're at. For reference, I'm 28 and have had a very unconventional education and been working in the service industry for many years. Not exactly "academic" material by pretentious standards. But hey, I was accepted to a "top five" program (if you believe in ranking) and I'm waitlisted at four fully funded programs, so I'd like to think this door is open for all sorts of writers. I do wish there was more transparency, but whatcanyado

*there are going to be bougie folks wherever you go--the fact that any of us can even consider getting this degree is, arguably, privilege. I say this as someone who until this year didn't even have a savings account. But for real, there will be problematic dynamics at all of these places... that said, I wouldn't ignore red flags. 

*Maybe there are literary geniuses who get into their dream school on the first try without doing ANY workshops, research, and without reading widely but it's the exception and not the rule. Try again!! Don't give up!! Unless it's making you miserable, or you realize it's just not for you, of course. I talked with so many folks this cycle, some who applied 4 (FOUR!!) times over the years, and one of whom got multiple offers from prestigious programs this cycle. It's okay to go back to the drawing board. Don't internalize the rejection, just learn from it. This was apparently a brutal year. And anyway, if we want to be writers, rejection is just a part of the deal. It sucks, but there it is. I cried over a lit mag rejection last week, but I'm already submitting other things... am I crazy? Probably. But if you really want to be a writer, you'll get through it and try again, because you *have* to... you gotta want this really bad. Hang in there!  

*edited for general wordiness and a typo. Also I accidentally said I was 27 and I'm actually 28 lmao

Edited March 25, 2021 by teasel

[Cristie]

1 hour ago, ariela luv said:

MFA's don't care about "experience," by the way. That post is speculation.

If you are referring to my post-which I think you are, explain please. I would think (and I am speculating you are right-but we all seem to be doing that on here) that a little life experience does bring something to the table. Not just age, but milestones, work, etc. I would hope that MFA programs would want a diverse group of writers to work with. I hope I end up in a program that supports diversity and a mentality that learning and writing is for a lifetime. How do they not care about experience? Please share. 

Many thanks, 

Cristie 

[teasel]

15 minutes ago, dillydally17 said:

Since the two people I turn to for creative/professional advice are telling me opposite things, I wanted to ask the internet: 
If this was your first time applying and you got into more than one fully funded programs, waitlisted at more than one fully funded program, but rejected by your 4 "dream" schools (Cornell, Brown, Hunter, IWW) would you:
A ) be grateful and accept the best offer you got this year
B ) read these results as a sign to roll the dice and apply again next year believing there will be fewer apps and your manuscript will be better, and you'll get actually into one of your dream schools.

After getting an encouraging personal rejection from Iowa (fiction), I honestly feel torn about this.  I really admire the people who apply 2,3, or more times and DO end up exactly where they want. But this process has given me months of nontrivial anxiety - and so does the thought of going through it again when I don't have to (and ultimately could get in nowhere). I feel like there's a relevant aphorism out there that would tell me what to do, but I don't have a good memory for that kind of thing lol. 

 

Just follow your gut--sorry if that's "woo woo" or not what you want to hear, but if your heart is set on IWW and you're not feeling the offers you received, you have your answer. What is it about the four dream schools? Is it the "prestige"?  It's a totally legit reason! I just think it's worth examining why these other offers don't excite you in the same way. Either way, you should be very proud of yourself for your acceptances, especially during such a competitive year. If you are okay with waiting and are sure you wouldn't regret turning down the other programs, then there's nothing wrong in waiting as long as you know it's a gamble. Someone was waitlisted by IWW last year and rejected without a note this year, so it's kind of a crap shoot no matter what. Sorry if this isn't helpful! But I think it's okay to follow your heart, as corny as it sounds, as long as you're really taking a realistic personal inventory 

[cecsav]

 

26 minutes ago, dillydally17 said:

If this was your first time applying and you got into more than one fully funded programs, 

...

A ) be grateful and accept the best offer you got this year
 

This is the way I'd look at this: With regard to the fully funded programs to which you've been accepted, the fact that you spent the time and money applying to them in the first place indicates that the programs have at least some attractive (to you) features. If you like the program, the faculty, the location, etc (I'm hoping you wouldn't have applied otherwise), and they're offering you adequate financial support, I'd say go for it. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by cecsav

[iai]

5 minutes ago, ariela luv said:

 

I was referring to iai because he basically made up that "what programs really want to see is experience in the field and a certain level of dedication. "

He was saying what seems to make sense to him, but he has no data to support it, and it is contrary to the conventional wisdom that the writing sample is the main criterion.

There is a post from an Adcom at U Mich that says she looks to build a diverse class. Under that theory there could be a scenario where an Adcom would want to avoid having all old or all young students. That could hurt or help anyone. 

First of all, I don’t appreciate that assumed that I’m a “he” but also, you cut what the where I said “I find that most programs...” This is not something I made up, and yes I’m speculating, but I based it off of the programs I applied to specifically and how I had an interviewer specifically state that they’d like to see applicants with more experience and longer history of dedication. Of course, that isn’t for all programs and I’m not saying that it is. I apologize for the poor wording choice, but I also wouldn’t say that MFA programs don’t necessarily care about experience at all. 

[Cristie]

26 minutes ago, teasel said:

*don't publish your creative materials on a public forum. You might wish to revise and send to lit mags, contests, etc. and it's a great way to make a piece essentially unusable. While not everything is publishing material, why take the chance? There are folks who have had materials from their applications published in top tier magazines after the fact

My bad. I'm just looking for help from people in the same boat. Do you happen to know/suggest the proper place to seek out help/peer reviews? I'm still figuring all this out but would really appreciate a finger pointing to HERE. Where is that magical place I seek? 

[cecsav]

Just now, Cristie said:

My bad. I'm just looking for help from people in the same boat. Do you happen to know/suggest the proper place to seek out help/peer reviews? I'm still figuring all this out but would really appreciate a finger pointing to HERE. Where is that magical place I seek? 

See if you can find something here

https://www.awpwriter.org/community_calendar/writing_group_overview