2021 Applicants Forum

[FairleyAlfy]

2 hours ago, forthetruththeyburnyou said:

I promise (to the best of my ability) that they don't hate you; they just try to be really thorough when screening folks to make sure no professors infiltrate the group.

(I haven't been in Draft since '19, but did see profs in there in the past trying to advertise their programs)

You might want to see about joining the MFA Draft Poetry Workshop group on FB; it's been a hot minute, so I'm not sure what the vetting process is like there, but since it's smaller, might be easier to get green lit? 

I do the exact same thing, re: quality of work. Pre-, post-, and during MFA. I say this in a, hang in there, you're not alone! sort of way. 

Thank you! This is helpful.

[Ydrl]

Things aren’t looking great for U. Minnesota, they gave an update about how they’re still fighting to have the creative writing program bring in a new cohort. And, if they manage to get the green light, they’re taking less than 12 people.

Every time I try to finalize the list of schools I’m applying to, something happens and I die a little on the inside. All these schools are Schrödinger’s cat. I need to stop looking, but I also need to know what’s going on.

[teasel]

On 11/7/2020 at 7:16 AM, Ydrl said:

Things aren’t looking great for U. Minnesota, they gave an update about how they’re still fighting to have the creative writing program bring in a new cohort. And, if they manage to get the green light, they’re taking less than 12 people.

Every time I try to finalize the list of schools I’m applying to, something happens and I die a little on the inside. All these schools are Schrödinger’s cat. I need to stop looking, but I also need to know what’s going on.

I know, I'm pretty bummed about it too since it's one of my top choices. I'm still planning to apply there, but who knows what will happen? I guess what worries me most is that (like many of us, probably) I'm extremely broke. They aren't able to give fee waivers, which is understandable. The thing is, I really can't afford to spend $60 on the app if they come out saying they're not accepting a class for 2021 after the fact. $60 might not seem like much, but things are hard atm. Hopefully it all get sorted out, but Dec. 1 is rapidly approaching! 

If you don't mind me asking, how far are you in terms of your apps as of now? I've finalized my SOP template, but still need to write tailored paragraphs for each program. My writing sample is on its third revision, so I'm probably good there. Have started filling out the online apps, but haven't finished any as of yet! I think I'll be submitting my first one in the next week!  It's all feeling very real right now. Hope ya'll are staying healthy and well ❤️ 

 

 

 

[teasel]

13 minutes ago, marshall goodman said:

Third revision? I'm on my 300th revision of an 80 page writing sample to Iowa. The writing sample is much more important than the SOP or anything else really. 

I’ve sent my rough draft to three writers I trust after looking things over this summer, then skimmed things down to my strongest poems. I’m feeling pretty confident, but thanks for the concern! Sounds like you’re working hard and on your way to success.
 

I’m more curious to hear if anyone’s actually started submitting anywhere. 

[teasel]

49 minutes ago, marshall goodman said:

10 schools rejected me last year. Not one said yes. 

A whole range of writing levels apply. There is no good way to judge whether you fall on the top or bottom. You might think you are Iowa material, when in fact you stood no chance to get in anywhere. 

Plus, there is subjectivity in the judge. 

For sure—subjectivity and many other factors exist outside our control. It’s a competitive and arguably brutal process we’re putting ourselves through. I hear that it’s very common for folks to apply two or three rounds before getting into a fully funded program. Still, all we can do is read, write and revise as much as possible and hopefully get some trusted readers to help with our blind spots. Rejection is something I think about often, but I’ve been told by my teachers that the most important thing is to keep writing no matter the outcome. Wishing you the best this cycle! 

[Ydrl]

10 hours ago, teasel said:

I know, I'm pretty bummed about it too since it's one of my top choices. I'm still planning to apply there, but who knows what will happen? I guess what worries me most is that (like many of us, probably) I'm extremely broke. They aren't able to give fee waivers, which is understandable. The thing is, I really can't afford to spend $60 on the app if they come out saying they're not accepting a class for 2021 after the fact. $60 might not seem like much, but things are hard atm. Hopefully it all get sorted out, but Dec. 1 is rapidly approaching! 

If you don't mind me asking, how far are you in terms of your apps as of now? I've finalized my SOP template, but still need to write tailored paragraphs for each program. My writing sample is on its third revision, so I'm probably good there. Have started filling out the online apps, but haven't finished any as of yet! I think I'll be submitting my first one in the next week!  It's all feeling very real right now. Hope ya'll are staying healthy and well ❤️ 

 

 

 

Yeah, I’m currently living on a fixed income so it’s really rough right now. I’m not sure if they recently hiked up the price, but U Minnesota is now 75 dollars to apply...I’m holding off on Minnesota until the next update comes, whatever that update is. It’s quite annoying that they don’t have an answer while the deadline is less than a month away. They could extend the deadline but I’m not sure why they haven’t.

I’m hyper aware of December 1st, Michener’s also due then. I still need to arrange the poems, review one last poem with a recommender, and customize every SOP as soon as possible because the deadlines are very close to each other.

I’ve paid the app fee for Michener, and started every other application. I’m still in limbo with Texas because I need to get my writing sample finalized. It’s truly maddening.

It’s feeling real for me too. Hope you stay healthy and sane during this chaotic application season.

[Ydrl]

@teasel

Minnesota is still gonna take people (and they extended the deadline to Dec. 15th)! They’re only taking six though, and all six have to have to be eligible for the CIC Program (a diversity based program) because there’s no other funding.

I meet the criteria, so I’m gonna apply... even though the odds of me getting in are laughably small.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Ydrl

[Graceful Entropy]

On 11/9/2020 at 10:50 PM, marshall goodman said:

Third revision? I'm on my 300th revision of an 80 page writing sample to Iowa. The writing sample is much more important than the SOP or anything else really. 

Hey my good man, I'm sorry to hear about your previous non-selections last year. 
I am going to be blunt, as I think you may be the type of person who likes and responds well to that: this is a community that strives to support each other, and your previous two comments seem to be lacking a bit in that regard. As we are all writers, I think it is important and expected that we take time to look at how we are framing what we say, and considering how a reader may understand it. 

But, maybe you were just down that day. I totally get it. Been a year. Hope things continue to get better.

@teaselI'm at about the same place as you: decent handle on my SOPs--a long, medium and short one--though not individualized yet, I've started the minutia of online apps for all my schools, and I'm just waiting on some trusted readers to let me know which pieces out of a smallish collection they think would really hit home on a sample.

Don't forget about possible fee waivers @Ydrl, and good luck at getting into Minnesota and everywhere else!

[baklava ethos]

Hey everyone. Quick question...does Washington University require teaching for grad students? thanks in advance.

[Ydrl]

9 hours ago, marshall goodman said:

I do like blunt, and on that grounds refuse to mince word. In peace there's nothing so becomes a man As modest stillness and humility: But when the blast of war blows in our ears, Then imitate the action of the tiger.

Uh, hey. It’s time to stop. I’m not sure the message of @Graceful Entropyever got to you. We’re here to support each other, and certainly not to wage war on each other. We’re in the same boat.

I know, applying is nerve wracking, and anxiety makes people say the darnedest things. It’d be wise of you to take your energy and put it into your applications. I wouldn’t bother raging against the people who seek to comfort you, me, and everyone else here. If you need help, we’re all here to support each other. But if all you want is to put others down or write cryptic messages that are supposed to make us wary of you, I recommend coming back to this thread when you can ask for advice and support while acknowledging we’re in this together. Collect your thoughts and emotions. Breathe. It’s gonna be okay.

[feralgrad]

37 minutes ago, marshall goodman said:

And how do you know it will be okay? Was it ok last year? 

There's a thread for venting. This is not that thread.

 

[Ydrl]

1 minute ago, marshall goodman said:

And how do you know it will be okay? Was it ok last year? 

TW: Suicide Attempt

Let me ask you a few questions: Are you still able to apply again? Do you still have hope? Are you willing to keep trying no matter what? Are you gonna give this your all?

I asked myself these questions when I didn’t get in anywhere last year. It took me months to say yes to these things. I wanted to die (and nearly did) a week after my last rejection letter came in the mail.

But you know what? It doesn’t matter how long it takes you to get back up when you’re knocked down. Because getting up is an achievement. Trying your best is an achievement. Moving past rejection is an achievement. Even though nobody’s gonna give you a standing ovation for each of these small victories, you should be proud that you had the guts to try last year and that you’re trying again.

It f*cking sucks to get rejected, and I know it’s weighing on you like it weighs on me. But this time is different. I learned from last year’s mistakes and worked really hard on the thing I could change: My writing. I got back on my feet and I’m offering my hand to you, all of you, let’s get up together.

[Ydrl]

1 minute ago, feralgrad said:

There's a thread for venting. This is not that thread.

 

I didn’t realize that existed. I typed out a whole inspiring speech. I suppose that’s the duality of this thread.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Ydrl

[feralgrad]

1 hour ago, marshall goodman said:

 

Fix your attitude problem or leave the thread. This is a space for applicants and current students to support each other -- not for childish, 2edgy arguing.

Edited November 16, 2020 by feralgrad

[Ydrl]

5 minutes ago, marshall goodman said:

You vouch “this time is different” ?

That’s a paraphrase of “Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgastic future that year by year recedes before us. It eluded us then, but that's no matter—tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. . . . And one fine morning—

So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

Do you know what Fitzgerald means, the whole premise of the book? He notices man overestimates the chance that this time will be different. UT Austin’s website says it takes less than 1% of fiction applicants.

Ydrl was rejected one year, but I’ve already been rejected everywhere for three years. So what odds should I give that this fourth year will be different? How many more years am I to spend ten application fees? Ydrl says it takes “guts” to try again, but not necessarily. Stupidity can suffice.

I get you’re bitter, and you have a good reason to be. It is stupid, applying to all these schools when there’s a tiny fraction of a chance that we’ll get into a school we want. The fact that schools suck our wallets dry by dangling hope over our heads is really really infuriating. Your feelings are valid.

However, I have questions for you.

1. Why are you here if you don’t believe your writing isn’t good enough to get you where you want to go? If you don’t have faith in your work, no one else will care about it.

2. Where are you applying? This is a question I want you to answer with a list. Not all schools have a horrendous acceptance rate. Michener and Iowa? Pipe dreams. New Hampshire? Not nearly as bad (no one posted a rejection in the poetry results). If you have a bunch of schools like Cornell (takes four students for fiction each year), then you’re setting yourself up for heartbreak. If you need suggestions for some schools that aren’t as hard to get into, I made a spreadsheet and would be happy to give you some options to consider.

3. Are you going to contribute anything positive to this thread, or continue treating the rest of us like competition you want to dishearten? We know that other people in this thread might be our competition, it’s common sense. But this is a thread to lift everyone’s spirits, we’re all comrades here going for the same goal. Last year, even though I didn’t get in anywhere, I cried happy tears when @feralgrad got into George Mason.

If you don’t want to support the people in our thread, leave. If you want to lash out at people who don’t know anything about you, leave.

However if you need guidance, support, cheering up, or friends during this process, you belong here.

I don’t know why you’ve had a bad run of applications for the past few cycles and I’m not going to pretend I do. The posters in this thread don’t want you to fail or feel like a failure. At this point, we’ve offered everything we can.

I’m gonna extend my hand again, because I want you to succeed. Especially because you seem really crushed about it. I don’t know you. I don’t know any of these people. But I don’t want to see you suffer. Accept our help dammit.

[Ydrl]

@feralgrad we keep posting at the same time haha *knocks on wood*. Your messages are compact and direct, and my posts are so so long. Should I start including tl;dr?

[feralgrad]

19 minutes ago, Ydrl said:

@feralgrad we keep posting at the same time haha *knocks on wood*. Your messages are compact and direct, and my posts are so so long. Should I start including tl;dr?

Honestly, I've dealt with enough users like this (mostly on other sites) to know that it's not worth my energy to debate him. It's kind-hearted of you to extend the olive branch, but the fact of the matter is that he hasn't said anything nice since he got here. Notice that he's luxuriating in responding to your lengthy posts with his own lengthy, condescending posts. Meanwhile he's not saying anything to me, because it's no fun debating someone who won't play along. He's just a troll using 10 dollar words.

Also, I'm trying not to derail the thread more than he has.

Edited November 16, 2020 by feralgrad

[feralgrad]

19 minutes ago, marshall goodman said:

Think of a Jewish slave to Pharaoh. At night, he looks at the stars. Someone says “There's no way out, no Jerusalem.” He says “what else do I have to do?” Then he slaves away all day, not because it is so worthwhile, but because nothing can be done.

>Comparing applying to MFA programs to being a slave in pharaonic Egypt

I change my mind please stay

[Ydrl]

6 minutes ago, marshall goodman said:

I am "here" because I don’t know what else to do. Think of a Jewish slave to Pharaoh. At night, he looks at the stars. Someone says “There's no way out, no Jerusalem.” He says “what else do I have to do?” Then he slaves away all day, not because it is so worthwhile, but because nothing can be done.

Deny it all you want. Characterize it as you choose. It is how the proverbial Martian would call it. 

I'm probably applying to Iowa, Michigan, Austin, Hunter, Brown, Brooklyn, U of VA, John Hopkins.

 

"Are you going to contribute anything positive to this thread, or continue treating the rest of us like competition you want to dishearten?"

The applicant pool is too big for me to imagine that this post will change my odds. I have no agenda. What you get here are my real thoughts. 

 

You know what I think I need? I think I need an editor, maybe a paid one. It can’t be cheating. Every published writer has an editor.

It sounds like you don’t have backup plans, kind of the same here. But it also sounds like your mood is spiraling downward real quick (I hope you’re okay). But you’re right, no one is coming to liberate you, because real life is a b*tch. However you are free to explore yourself and your surroundings until you find something that frees you from this state of mind.

Thank you for telling me about the schools you’re interested in. I appreciate you responding to that question. I see you’ve only picked fully funded, stellar reputation schools. I did something similar last year. This year I picked some schools with less popularity because they align with things I value more than prestige (faculty, years spent in the program, states I don’t mind living in, cohort size). If you really want to get in somewhere, look for some less famous schools that align with the things you value on your writing journey.

I’m glad you’re being honest with us about your thoughts.

One thing about published authors. My father has published multiple books and had the same paid editor throughout all of them. His books suck. No amount of editing, not even stylistic editing, can change the content of his sh*tty, sh*tty books.

I mean, if you want an editor, sure, whatever. It isn’t cheating to have someone look over your writing and suggest improvements. That’s what I do with my recommenders, all of them have MFAs, we sit down and talk about choices I made and they point out glaring flaws that I’ve missed.

I don’t think you’re gonna read this, but in my opinion (which probably means nothing to you) what you need is to reassess your relationship with writing. Writing because you don’t know what else you can do is not a good reason to pursue an MFA.

[Ydrl]

1 hour ago, marshall goodman said:

 

Not knowing what to do is not a good reason to pursue an MFA, and it is not a good reason to do any alternative to pursuing an MFA. You make a bad choice when all the choices are bad. That is how it works. 

I kind of feel that, if I can’t go to the best, or at least John Hopkins, I don’t want to go anywhere at all. I’d rather just lead an angry, quiet life and die. Abject failure is more romantic than mere mediocrity. 

To pay in order to be an artist when there is no prospect to earn a living in literary fiction, to go in debt $80K for NYU, it is like paying someone to look at your art. It is saccharine, savagery. Did Shakespeare have to pay people? 

I just don’t know where to find an editor I trust, paid or not.

Would you walk a tightrope if there wasn’t a safety net? That’s exactly how I view this situation. I empathize with you, really. I don’t have a fully fleshed out backup plan either. It scares me that I might have to apply another round after this. At the same time, even if I don’t make it this round, I can take even more time to focus on my health, relationships, and hone my writing as I start living independently.

I respect your choice, it’s one that I won’t be making, but you do what you want, I guess. I have some issues with failure being better than being mediocre. 1. Going somewhere that’s “mediocre” doesn’t mean you’ll be forever mediocre. 2. You can leave a school for a different one later. You aren’t trapped there. 3. What on Earth makes failure more romantic than achieving something you want so badly? Most of us on this thread are pursuing a passion that will never stop burning no matter what. It’s quite dramatic that you want to get in somewhere excellent, but would rather fail before accepting that you are the thing you look down on: mediocrity.

There’s not a polite way to say this: Get your off your high horse. Right now we don’t compare to the teachers and writers we’re fascinated with. If people like us are good enough to get into grad school, perhaps being mediocre isn’t bad.

[Ydrl]

5 hours ago, marshall goodman said:

Maybe you can say this, but I myself certainly cannot. 

If you can compare yourself to your teachers and writing influencers, why do you even need an MFA? If you’re that good, stop b*tching about application fees, just submit to literary magazines and leave this thread.

Considering your track record with rejections, I’m gonna advise you to take your haughty attitude and swap it for humility. We all have a lot to learn about writing. Pretending you know what you’re doing isn’t gonna make that a reality.

Also, I’m fascinated by how you switch between “Where do I find myself a first class editor to boost my chances of acceptance?” and “I’m just as good as the people I admire even if I don’t have an editor.”

Maybe decide which paper-thin persona suits you before you think about applying this round.

[Ydrl]

1 hour ago, marshall goodman said:

 

That is like asking, if you are a good writer, why do you need to read? It is like saying “you have so much muscle, so why do you need food? You should be powerful enough.”  One has nothing to do with the other. You don’t understand writing yet. Good writers need editors as much as bad writers do. The Nobel winners have editors.

Uh, no. You don’t have to get an MFA if you’re a writer. Of course you have to read to write, that’s common sense. Of course you have to eat to keep muscle. What you’re doing is twisting my statement about you and your issues into a question I never asked.

First, I never said I understood it all about fiction writing and editing, I’m a poet. Stop comparing apples to oranges. Second, I think you don’t understand writing any more than I do. Did you learn anything after years of applications? Besides how to be a jaded, whiny man-baby, of course.

How many times will you launch into your broken record speech about editors? No one cares, the majority of us aren’t there yet. We still have a lot of learning to do in order to publish. After a full roster of rejections over multiple years, there are probably fundamental things you don’t see that are ruining your writing, and your chances. Maybe, it’s because you’re not a good fit for the schools you apply to, maybe you think your writing is way better than it is, or perhaps the committees look at your SOP and think that you’re as pleasant as a dumpster fire. It might even be all three.

I regret being nice to you in the beginning. I assumed you just needed to talk to people who were in the same situation but were accidentally coming off as mean and insecure. It’s not an accident, it’s a toxic pattern. @feralgrad was absolutely right to call you out.

[Ydrl]

14 hours ago, marshall goodman said:

You don't learn anything from applications. 

There is nothing fundamental ruining my writing that I don't see. That isn't the problem. It is possible you are projecting. An undergrad writing teacher told me that he was rejected from 10 MFA schools. Then Univ. of Maryland called and said their first choice cancelled on them, so there was space for him. He said MFA admission is subjective and arbitrary. It is. 

I am an excellent fit for Iowa. 

You’re funny, “There is nothing fundamental ruining my writing that I don’t see.” I just told you that you can’t see it. You aren’t some all seeing deity, and you aren’t above the rest of us either.

Yes, for those who are being seriously considered by the college, it’s quite random and the little things can make a difference. But it’s not like we’re all on the same playing field. Some people are destined for the podium, some people aren’t gonna make it there until they realize they’ve lost.

I’m curious, did anyone in Iowa say you’re a good fit for them? Or is it just you locked in an echo chamber? Because to be a good fit for any program, you need to stop being overwhelmingly negative and as dense as a fruitcake.

[Ydrl]

For the rest of you, I’m deeply sorry that you have to see me arguing with this dude. It takes a special breed of ignorance and hubris to get me this fired up. I’m not like this offline, and I’m not like this with understanding, rational, kind people like y’all.

[spacedumpster]

So uhhh... Sorry to detract from homie's baffling pivot from being rejected by ten schools, to being God's gift to literature, but... I'm new here! Gimme da good vibez!

It's my first time applying for an MFA. I looked exclusively at fully-funded, somewhat eclectic programs, and ultimately applied to: 

Michener 

Arizona State

Oregon State

University of Florida

University of South Florida

Hoping I set myself apart by getting in the pool extremely early on all of these. Anyway, not sure why I am here, but good luck to everyone who is applying, even if you're snarky!

 

Cheers, Y'all.