Nightmares: Georgetown Arab studies

[katemiddleton]

Hey all! I'm new to this forum, and I would love some feedback on my chances into the Georgetown MA in Arab studies

I'm at a topic public school, with a 3.9 GPA, GRE 700 quant, 800 verbal, 6.0 awa. Published and presented my research (on women in Islamic law) at conferences, edit two academic journals, speak several languages, and have won several fellowships and awards for my research.

I'm wondering how I stack up as an applicant. I visited the school in november, and I met with the director of the program. She basically told me I was in, she loves my work and wants to work with me-but does this verbal confirmation mean anything? It's my top choice school, and I really don't want to get my hopes up (and the hopes of my famlly) for nothing.

Thanks,

Alex

[db2290]

I can't tell if some of these posts are jokes or not. I am trying to be helpful but what other insight do you think forum members can give? How can we give better judgement on your application than the director of the program?

I don't think you need any ego stroking from anyone here, you are clearly a highly qualified applicant.

[waddle]

I can't tell if some of these posts are jokes or not. I am trying to be helpful but what other insight do you think forum members can give? How can we give better judgement on your application than the director of the program?

Chillax, db2290. The OP's just trying to get some advice regarding his application. I understand your vigilance for trolls, but I don't see any indication that the OP is anything troll-like. Hey, at least the post is (mostly) grammatically-correct, and we really shouldn't sound like we're driving first-time users away from the forum. (I know you try to be helpful, but your tone comes across as slightly bitter--could be an artifact of the Internets, but nonetheless ...)

Georgetownhopeful, I have no advice I can give (sorry!), as I'm not in your field. I'm sure others here will have much better advice, especially if you could give a few more details as to how this "verbal confirmation" was worded.

waddle

P.S. For the record, db2290, I canceled out your -1 rating.

Edited December 12, 2010 by waddle

[Strangefox]

Hey all! I'm new to this forum, and I would love some feedback on my chances into the Georgetown MA in Arab studies

I'm at a topic public school, with a 3.9 GPA, GRE 700 quant, 800 verbal, 6.0 awa. Published and presented my research (on women in Islamic law) at conferences, edit two academic journals, speak several languages, and have won several fellowships and awards for my research.

I'm wondering how I stack up as an applicant. I visited the school in november, and I met with the director of the program. She basically told me I was in, she loves my work and wants to work with me-but does this verbal confirmation mean anything? It's my top choice school, and I really don't want to get my hopes up (and the hopes of my famlly) for nothing.

Thanks,

Alex

Hi! You are definetely a strong candidate, no doubt here

As for the verbal confirmation, it seems tricky... I have read quite a lot of old threads on this forum and at the boards like "Waiting it out" and "Decisions, decisions" I found several stories about people who had been encouraged to apply to a program by a professor/director of the program and then got rejected. I am afraid that a promise of this kind can be easily broken in academia... That does not mean of course that what the director told you does not matter. It is a very good sign, I think. You just need to stay realistic and remember not to put too much hope in these promises because til you have a written acception from the program, you have nothing... That's the sad truth.

But again, you seem like a very strong candidate so I am sure you will be accepted someplace. I would not recommend you, though, to put all eggs in one basket and apply only to the aforementioned program based on the kind words its director said. Because things happen.

Good luck!!

[Alyanumbers]

waddle, if I could give you a +2, I would.

OP, you sound like a very strong candidate, but do apply to more than one program, because even strong applicants sometimes get rejected by departments who feel they/their research interests wouldn't 'fit in'.

[Bukharan]

Alex, you are an excellent candidate! Your GPA and GRE are perfect, you have research experience and languages! Don't worry!

But do apply for other programmes just in case.

[db2290]

I didn't mean to come across as bitter at all, and I completely agree with waddle.

My point is that by any standards, the OP is exceptionally well qualified and must know that. He has more or less the perfect academic and professional background. The only other factors which are likely to be of importance are going to be the SOP and references, neither of which we are privy to. My point was that the members of this forum are likely to not be able to say anything of use other than you are an excellent candidate (which you are, and they have done).

[anthropologygeek]

People need reassurance sometimes. It didn't come off as bragging it came off as I really want in and need to talk about it to someone. I know I drove my Sign other crazy a clipped years ago. Even after I got. In and accepted the offer I had doubts the offer was real until I started classes.

Edited December 12, 2010 by anthropologygeek

[katemiddleton]

Hey guys! Sorry if I came off as a troll, I'm not joking at all. Just worried and insecure, like I think alot of us applicants are. Also, I'm a girl!

Thank you for the positive feedback. I'm worried because even though I'm applying to other programs, Georgetown is my dream school, and the director really got my hopes up. I'm just trying to be careful.

Once again, thank you for your insights. I wish all of you luck in the application process!

Alex

[katemiddleton]

Waddle-

Thank you for your kind words!

DB2290-

I know I'm crazy right now, believe me. My family, friends, and fiance all put their hands in their ears and sing loudly when I talk about how I'm not going to get into any graduate school. But I work in college admissions with undergraduates, and I've seen so many outstanding students get rejected from schools like Georgetown-it makes me really wonder what kind of qualifications are 'good enough,' and I've never applied to graduate school, so I really have no idea what a great candidate is, versus a not-so-great one. My professional experience is that high schoolers with 4.5 gpa's, perfect SAT scores, and extracurriculars that would make your eyes cross routinely get rejected from top schools, so I suppose I'm a bit leery of the whole process.

But thank you for your insight.

In terms of the way that the director of the program worded her statement, she basically told me that she loves my research, wants to be my advisor, and will push for me during the committee session. However, one of my good friends told me that she recieved a similar assurance from someone at UVA, but that she was then rejected!

Alex

[TMP]

OP,

What nobody has mentioned so far is department politics. It is the worst kind of rejection that one could possibly get because you ARE actually qualified for the program but the executive committee doesn't want you. Not only is the applicant hurt, the professor is as well. You can have all of your ducks in a row and your professor could be ready to aim fire for you, but other professors may have more power or better arguments for why their students should get in. It's a blow to a professor's ego when he or she cannot get a new student, especially if the professor happens to love mentoring.

I was turned down/waitlisted at several schools last cycle simply because of this. I have spoken with a professor at 2 different schools and I could tell, just from reading their e-mails, that they had truly hoped that I would get in and tried their best to get in me. But there were things completely out of their control. They felt horrible. I think they still did when I contacted them again earlier this fall when I told them that I wanted to re-apply. And, of course, they're interested in trying again and encouraged me to apply again.

This is the difference between graduate and undergraduate admissions.

[katemiddleton]

Dear Tickelmepink,

that's EXACTLY what I was asking. So basically, even if you are a well qualified applicant and the profs want you in, departmental politics might mean you are SOL.

thank you!

Alex

OP,

What nobody has mentioned so far is department politics. It is the worst kind of rejection that one could possibly get because you ARE actually qualified for the program but the executive committee doesn't want you. Not only is the applicant hurt, the professor is as well. You can have all of your ducks in a row and your professor could be ready to aim fire for you, but other professors may have more power or better arguments for why their students should get in. It's a blow to a professor's ego when he or she cannot get a new student, especially if the professor happens to love mentoring.

I was turned down/waitlisted at several schools last cycle simply because of this. I have spoken with a professor at 2 different schools and I could tell, just from reading their e-mails, that they had truly hoped that I would get in and tried their best to get in me. But there were things completely out of their control. They felt horrible. I think they still did when I contacted them again earlier this fall when I told them that I wanted to re-apply. And, of course, they're interested in trying again and encouraged me to apply again.

This is the difference between graduate and undergraduate admissions.

[starmaker]

I know I'm crazy right now, believe me. My family, friends, and fiance all put their hands in their ears and sing loudly when I talk about how I'm not going to get into any graduate school. But I work in college admissions with undergraduates, and I've seen so many outstanding students get rejected from schools like Georgetown-it makes me really wonder what kind of qualifications are 'good enough,' and I've never applied to graduate school, so I really have no idea what a great candidate is, versus a not-so-great one. My professional experience is that high schoolers with 4.5 gpa's, perfect SAT scores, and extracurriculars that would make your eyes cross routinely get rejected from top schools, so I suppose I'm a bit leery of the whole process.

I worked in my school's admissions office for food money as an undergrad, so I understand what you're saying about college admissions.

There are two things to keep in mind, though.

1) Some of those perfect stats high-schoolers get rejected for a reason - they inflated that GPA by taking too-easy classes, or they come across as an arrogant little jerk in their essays, or they're obvious grade grubbers who don't appear to have an intellectual or personal life outside of doing well in classes and on tests, or they seem like they'll crumble the first time they get a B on a homework, or they chose their recommenders, poorly or they're just not a good fit with the university that they're applying to. They aren't all perfect applicants who got crowded out by other perfect applicants. Similar things can happen in grad admissions. An applicant with top numbers might get rejected because they had a bad recommendation, or the professor that they want to work with isn't taking new students, or whatever. So don't read horror stories of applicants with top numbers and lots of awards getting rejected and say "Clearly this means I have no chance!"

2) Grad applicants aren't judged by the same criteria as undergrad applicants, so it's apples and oranges.

I did notice something about the quoted paragraph that I wanted to mention. You said that you're worrying out loud about how you're not going to get in, and that your family and friends are tired of hearing it. Are your friends also applying to grad programs? Are some of them, perhaps, less exceptionally well qualified than you? If so, then listening to you talk about how you won't get in could be really upsetting and demoralizing for them. And I'm sure that this isn't your intention at all! Most people are anxious during this process, no matter how well-qualified, and of course they want to vocalize that! I am just pointing out how it might look from their point of view, because I would hate for you to get through this process only to find out that you've accidentally alienated your friends and perhaps damaged the friendships.

[katemiddleton]

Starmaker,

Thank you for your insight! No, none of my friends are applying to graduate school. I've just been obsessing over it; but now that my applications are in and finals are done (and after talking to you fine folks) I'm realizing that I've done what I can, and I have to stop worrying about it.

Happy holidays and good luck!

[tt503]

I'm not sure about Georgetown, but I'd be VERY surprised if you didn't get in at Harvard MTS--most likely with a significant scholarship. They are notorious for accepting anyone above a 3.7 GPA, regardless of other qualifications.

Hey all! I'm new to this forum, and I would love some feedback on my chances into the Georgetown MA in Arab studies

I'm at a topic public school, with a 3.9 GPA, GRE 700 quant, 800 verbal, 6.0 awa. Published and presented my research (on women in Islamic law) at conferences, edit two academic journals, speak several languages, and have won several fellowships and awards for my research.

I'm wondering how I stack up as an applicant. I visited the school in november, and I met with the director of the program. She basically told me I was in, she loves my work and wants to work with me-but does this verbal confirmation mean anything? It's my top choice school, and I really don't want to get my hopes up (and the hopes of my famlly) for nothing.

Thanks,

Alex

[katemiddleton]

I'm not sure about Georgetown, but I'd be VERY surprised if you didn't get in at Harvard MTS--most likely with a significant scholarship. They are notorious for accepting anyone above a 3.7 GPA, regardless of other qualifications.

Thank you for that uplifting sentiment! (smile) At least I won't be on the streets, dancing for my supper. Which I've been thinking lately may be a possibility...

[prolixity]

Hey all! I'm new to this forum, and I would love some feedback on my chances into the Georgetown MA in Arab studies

I'm at a topic public school, with a 3.9 GPA, GRE 700 quant, 800 verbal, 6.0 awa. Published and presented my research (on women in Islamic law) at conferences, edit two academic journals, speak several languages, and have won several fellowships and awards for my research.

I'm wondering how I stack up as an applicant. I visited the school in november, and I met with the director of the program. She basically told me I was in, she loves my work and wants to work with me-but does this verbal confirmation mean anything? It's my top choice school, and I really don't want to get my hopes up (and the hopes of my famlly) for nothing.

Thanks,

Alex

GRE is going to hurt you. I'd advise you to retake it.

[qbtacoma]

GRE is going to hurt you. I'd advise you to retake it.

Way to be a troll, dude. Take your snark elsewhere - GradCafe is a place for respect. Georgetownhopeful, your GRE scores are fine (but I think you know that).

[katemiddleton]

Way to be a troll, dude. Take your snark elsewhere - GradCafe is a place for respect. Georgetownhopeful, your GRE scores are fine (but I think you know that).

Thank you for your chivalrous defense! I took the GRE comment as a joke, not "trolling." But I really admire how kind most people are in this community!

Alex

[wtncffts]

Come on, no need to be so reactive. It was a lighthearted jab; perhaps an emoticon would have helped...

Edit: As to the original post, I despair at my own chances if you can't get in or are worried about it. You have an excellent record for a PhD admit, and MAs are typically much easier to get into.

Edited January 23, 2011 by wtncffts

[wannabee]

Departmental politics should be a less of a factor for the MA in Arab Studies, precisely because it is not a PhD program. As I understand it, the way the MA program works, they admit you with a specialization in an area but there is less emphasis on the particular professor you want to work with (not that you can't mention particular profs in your SOP).

Your credentials are great, and I would guess you stand an excellent shot at admission and funding. But I am in the same boat you are, waiting to hear back from various programs, and, like you, am fearing the worst!

How did you like the GT essay where you address the "greatest problem" in the Middle East today?

[katemiddleton]

Departmental politics should be a less of a factor for the MA in Arab Studies, precisely because it is not a PhD program. As I understand it, the way the MA program works, they admit you with a specialization in an area but there is less emphasis on the particular professor you want to work with (not that you can't mention particular profs in your SOP).

Your credentials are great, and I would guess you stand an excellent shot at admission and funding. But I am in the same boat you are, waiting to hear back from various programs, and, like you, am fearing the worst!

How did you like the GT essay where you address the "greatest problem" in the Middle East today?

Dear Cami,

Thanks for the advice! My nervous cat is having kittens in my stomach all day, every day, so every bit of reassurance helps.

I actually really liked the essay. It sucks not to be able to give them a writing sample, but this was the next best thing. I basically took the topic of my writing sample,

and wrote the essay about it. How about you? Did you find it an odd question?

Alex

[wannabee]

No, not odd. Just different. It was actually a good request and made me think more carefully about some issues than I had done in the past. However, I definitely couldn't use my "normal" writing sample(s, since these were chapters from my honors thesis that focused on a particular research topic.

[cherubie]

Waddle-

T

I know I'm crazy right now, believe me. My family, friends, and fiance all put their hands in their ears and sing loudly when I talk about how I'm not going to get into any graduate school. But I work in college admissions with undergraduates, and I've seen so many outstanding students get rejected from schools like Georgetown-it makes me really wonder what kind of qualifications are 'good enough,' and I've never applied to graduate school, so I really have no idea what a great candidate is, versus a not-so-great one. My professional experience is that high schoolers with 4.5 gpa's, perfect SAT scores, and extracurriculars that would make your eyes cross routinely get rejected from top schools, so I suppose I'm a bit leery of the whole process.

I'm currently working at a lab where we get applications almost every week. I spent the last 3 hours just wading through applications, replying, and trying to weed out the ones we don't want. Although I'm no where near qualified to predict your chances, or what graduate schools are looking for, I think I can give some personal insight. A lot of people tend to worry that 4.0 GPA and 1600 (or near that) GRE isn't enough. We don't know what the adcoms are looking for, and feel like we need to cure cancer or discover some lost tribe in order to even be considered. Well, after bulging my eyes out in the last year looking at undergraduate applicants applying to this lab, I can honestly say that numbers are not everything. In fact, they don't indicate too much. When I first started looking at applicants, if they had a 3.6+ GPA and seemed to have reasonable writing skills, I would jump up and down and ask them for an interview. Flash forward a year, now if an applicant has a near perfect GPA and perfect writing skills, I'm actually more leery of him/her. It's ironic, yes, but that's what experience has taught me. Again, looking at undergraduate lab applicants is definitely not the same as working in a grad school committee, but I would imagine some of the basics are the same.

1. Almost all of the "near perfect record" students that we took ended up being mindless robots. They are here to try to get to medical school, with no real passion for the experiments, and only do exactly what they are told. I often spend MORE time explaining something to them than if I were to go ahead and do it myself. Sure, they get straight A's, but they don't "think outside the box". If I tell them do A, then B, then C, they balk once they see some pattern that's not similar. As for me, when I first started, I was given half-assed instructions ONCE. They teach something to me once (often leaving out essential things that I later get burned for) and it's on my own. With some of these students, I spend hours teaching them the same thing over and over again. I'm sure grad school don't want these straight A bobble heads.

2. Although high GPA doesn't guarantee you're awesome, a low GPA almost certainly means you're out. We've made 2 exceptions with low GPA's (less than 2.5 overall, less than 3.0 in major). One exception was because she had work experience very similar to the skills we look for here in the lab. Another exception is because he presented him application so well I didn't have the heart to reject him (without talking to him first). But still, with a low GPA, we (myself and my PI who is also on a grad committee) question why can't they at least get a B in something they want to spend their life doing?

3. Your writing matters- A LOT, even more than GPA sometimes. I've seen applicants who sounded as if it was OUR pleasure to have him in the lab. I've also seen applicants who don't capitalize their I's, or write as if they're in 3rd grade. I would imagine the same thing for graduate/undergrad school. If you're a 4.0 student, but your personal statement/essays look like they went through a translation service, it's not going to get you in.

4. Your enthusiasm and uniqueness matters. After looking through 5 emails all saying the same exact thing, (now multiply that by 20 for grad school), having an applicant who sounds genuine and enthusiastic can make all the difference. Thus, cliche as it is, being yourself is actually very important.

5. Finally, the way you present yourself is very important- thus the interview. We took a student mostly because of her GPA and her work hours, but one of our lab members noted that she didn't even know the basics of what she's studying. How can you be a 3rd year XYZ major without even know XYZ 101. She was titled "the power applicant" before her interview. Needless to say, I don't expect much from her.

SOOOO sorry for the long post, this is MY opinion on why GPA and GRE and numbers don't always get you in. Many of these things I learned from my PI also, and I know he shares a similar point of view. As students (I'm a hopeful applicant myself), if we have high GPA or GRE, we complain about why they can't seem to guarantee admission. Maybe try to take a step back and put ourselves in the admission people's shoes. I mean I'm bitter because I spent days training one student only to have her leave us after 2 semesters (when she said she'd stay for at least 4). Imagine how a graduate school would feel after training you for years, only to realize you're nothing without your transcript or GRE report. They invest time and money on students, they HAVE to look beyond what's on paper.

[katemiddleton]

Wow! What a thoughtful response! In terms of the 'robot' assertion, I hear that all the time, but I have not really found it to be true in my experience. For example, although I sacrifice alot in order to keep my grades and scores high, I also volunteer, intern, work two jobs, and have a close knit circle of friends and family. I'm also in a very happy relationship! So I think the important thing is finding a work/life balance.

Alex