Want Your Sanity? Lie About the Deadline to Recs!

[Loric]

It's a classic behavior modification technique. Need someone at an event at 7pm? Know they are always an hour late? Tell them the party is at 6pm.

 

The same concept applies to reccomenders. They have solidified notions in their heads that they can turn in their letter late.. because some places allow it.. but it's not like they research if the school you're applying to allows it. So while they're doing what they do.. you could end up thoroughly screwed over.

 

So you lie... you lie for the greater good. You tell them YOUR deadlines for the LOR and set your benchmarks to check in and see how progress is going, to touch base, to see if there's any questions you can answer and if there's more information you can provided.

 

And then, 2-3 weeks before the actual deadline you'll get your letter - minimal stress. Still, a week after the faux-deadline you set up, but well before the school deadline.

 

This is the practical and pragmatic way to approach get a LOR. Asking, waiting, replying on a prof to be professional and do what they say they will.. is an effort in futility most of the time. This forum exists as nothing more than a constant reminder of the stress, panic, and anxiety the "old way" has caused.

 

Save yourself the heartbreak and do it the new way.

[fuzzylogician]

...unless the professors have other students applying to the same schools who don't lie and give the real deadline, in which case you are screwed. No one wants to be manipulated or be made a fool of.

[Loric]

Isn't sayin you'll get something done by a deadline of which you have no itentions of doing just as much screwing?

 

Except on tthat end the consequences aren't pride and ego, but rather actually school rejections because they didnt get the letter in time?

[fuzzylogician]

If you were my student and I learned you were lying and trying to manipulate me, I believe that I would get mad enough to reflect that in my letters. Certainly I would not agree to write any more letters for you in the future -- that's a rule with me. If you lie to me, I will want to have nothing to do with you as much as I can possibly help it, because I would not be able to trust anything you say or have ever said to me in the past.

 

Letters very often can arrive after the deadlines, and professors know that. You, on the other hand, have no idea what the professor did or didn't check or what they do or don't know. You want to preemptively lie to prevent imagined consequences. If it works, more power to you. For me the reduced stress from having the letter early would not be worth it because of the added stress caused by the fear of being found out as a liar.

[dat_nerd]

I don't see why lying is necessary. You can ask your recommenders to submit their letters by a particular date, one that is a few days ahead of the deadline. There's no need to pretend it's the actual deadline, and if asked about it, there's no problem with being honest about it. I'd even consider it prudent, if I were in the recommender's shoes.

[TakeruK]

I don't think I can convey how much of a bad idea I think this is. I agree that you should take measures to avoid getting yourself screwed over. But I think this action would greatly increase your chances of getting screwed over. I agree with dat_nerd that if you really want something done by an earlier date, just be honest about it and say "I would really like the LOR by X" but I don't even recommend this. I would not want my professor micromanaging me and arbitrarily deciding that I should have X things done by certain dates even though the deadline is really another date and there was no reason to finish it early. So, why would you do that to someone else? (*Note: in many cases, it does make sense for an advisor to ask their student to finish a draft a week before a deadline so that they can go over it and make suggestions. But it is less likely that will be the case for a LOR!)

 

I also agree with fuzzy that the professors know way more about the "code of conduct" for LORs than you do. It's not like they are newbies to this, they themselves serve on admission committees to your school and they themselves have applied to grad school in the past. I also agree that in academia, integrity is everything. At this early stage in our careers, if we compromise our integrity in a professional setting, we will lose all credibility.

 

But if all that still does not convince you, here are some more practical reasons why I think this is a terrible idea.

 

1. Outside of rolling admissions, many schools have similar deadlines. The common dates are Dec 1, Dec 15, Jan 1, Jan 15, plus or minus one or two days. In my field, Dec 15 is an especially common deadline. For big name schools, the dates do not change from year to year. So a claim that a school's deadline is Nov 1 would be pretty fishy. If I saw that I would be curious and it would take me 30 seconds to figure out it's a lie. Changing the deadline by a week doesn't really make a huge difference.

 

2. Your prof has likely sent in letters to most of the schools you're applying for in the past. They probably have an annual routine of doing their letters at certain times of the busy fall semester to meet these deadlines. If you ask for something out of sync with the norm, it might raise a flag.

 

3. I also think if you can't trust your LOR writer to actually act in your best interests then you probably made a bad choice for a LOR writer. You are already trusting them to write positive things in the LOR, so why can't you trust them to send the LOR in a timely manner (timely as defined by the way things actually work, not necessarily meeting the online deadline).

 

4. This is probably the most important so I saved it for the end! Most schools use electronic LORs where you register your LOR writer's email address and name and the software sends the LOR writer a link to a page to log in and upload your letter. I am pretty certain (although I have not seen one) that this email/page would also contain the application deadline. 

[VioletAyame]

I don't think I can convey how much of a bad idea I think this is. I agree that you should take measures to avoid getting yourself screwed over. But I think this action would greatly increase your chances of getting screwed over. I agree with dat_nerd that if you really want something done by an earlier date, just be honest about it and say "I would really like the LOR by X" but I don't even recommend this. I would not want my professor micromanaging me and arbitrarily deciding that I should have X things done by certain dates even though the deadline is really another date and there was no reason to finish it early. So, why would you do that to someone else? (*Note: in many cases, it does make sense for an advisor to ask their student to finish a draft a week before a deadline so that they can go over it and make suggestions. But it is less likely that will be the case for a LOR!)

 

I also agree with fuzzy that the professors know way more about the "code of conduct" for LORs than you do. It's not like they are newbies to this, they themselves serve on admission committees to your school and they themselves have applied to grad school in the past. I also agree that in academia, integrity is everything. At this early stage in our careers, if we compromise our integrity in a professional setting, we will lose all credibility.

 

But if all that still does not convince you, here are some more practical reasons why I think this is a terrible idea.

 

1. Outside of rolling admissions, many schools have similar deadlines. The common dates are Dec 1, Dec 15, Jan 1, Jan 15, plus or minus one or two days. In my field, Dec 15 is an especially common deadline. For big name schools, the dates do not change from year to year. So a claim that a school's deadline is Nov 1 would be pretty fishy. If I saw that I would be curious and it would take me 30 seconds to figure out it's a lie. Changing the deadline by a week doesn't really make a huge difference.

 

2. Your prof has likely sent in letters to most of the schools you're applying for in the past. They probably have an annual routine of doing their letters at certain times of the busy fall semester to meet these deadlines. If you ask for something out of sync with the norm, it might raise a flag.

 

3. I also think if you can't trust your LOR writer to actually act in your best interests then you probably made a bad choice for a LOR writer. You are already trusting them to write positive things in the LOR, so why can't you trust them to send the LOR in a timely manner (timely as defined by the way things actually work, not necessarily meeting the online deadline).

 

4. This is probably the most important so I saved it for the end! Most schools use electronic LORs where you register your LOR writer's email address and name and the software sends the LOR writer a link to a page to log in and upload your letter. I am pretty certain (although I have not seen one) that this email/page would also contain the application deadline. 

 

4. I've seen the email from U Penn Annenberg. It does mention the dealine. In bold red letters.

[Loric]

And yet despite all your proclamations there's hundred of posts about letters not being written on time or at all.

Because a chance your prof would question the deadline you gave them is a bigger issue than not getting it at all....?

Because 2 weeks after the deadline when a prof "feels" they can submit is the time to be panicked and trying to find a new rec?

Telling someone you want something before an actual deadline because they notoriously are late is not unethical. Not everyone has the relationship you do with your prof and your type of person is not the only type worthy of education.

If you'd like to actually help people i'd love to hear it. Right now all I hear is your constant "maybe you shouldn't go at all" passive aggressive nonsense.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Loric

[socioholic]

I do this for pretty much everybody. But, if you feel some way about lying, you can simply ask then to have it submitted by a certain date. You don't have to tell them THE deadline.

And if they just flake out and don't do it, doesn't matter anyway...

[DSA]

My approach was to let my letter-writers know about the application deadlines for each school, as in the deadlines I myself have. I didn't try to portray them as the cut-off point for recommendations to come in. But off the top of my head I don't know the recommender deadlines for each school -- some are a few days after, others are a few weeks. My recommenders are in academia and know the drill, and I know that they recognize that there's some less-defined buffer period after the applicant deadline. 

 

I would feel uncomfortable about micromanaging my recommenders further by giving them an earlier deadline -- it's just that the deadline I mention is the only deadline I'm actively aware of myself.

[TakeruK]

And yet despite all your proclamations there's hundred of posts about letters not being written on time or at all.

Because a chance your prof would question the deadline you gave them is a bigger issue than not getting it at all....?

Because 2 weeks after the deadline when a prof "feels" they can submit is the time to be panicked and trying to find a new rec?

Telling someone you want something before an actual deadline because they notoriously are late is not unethical. Not everyone has the relationship you do with your prof and your type of person is not the only type worthy of education.

If you'd like to actually help people i'd love to hear it. Right now all I hear is your constant "maybe you shouldn't go at all" passive aggressive nonsense.

 

I think "hundreds" of post is a bit of an exaggeration. We don't really know all the details behind many of the cases that are posted here. I've read some cases where I think the student did not clearly state their intention to the professor at all! Also, as I said above, the profs in the field know better about what is the right timeline for a letter than we do. The application deadline is mostly for the applicant, not the LORs. If the prof submits the LOR late, they probably know that it is okay. Again, if you are not confident in your LOR writer's ability to write your letter on time, then I would seriously question that choice of LOR writer. If you have past experiences with this LOR writer and know that they often miss deadlines, I would remind them, in a friendly way, at more frequent intervals (maybe every week for the 3 weeks leading up to the deadline?)

 

But to your last point, yes, I agree--not everyone has a good relationship with all of their professors. I said above that I wouldn't choose profs like this for LOR writers but what if the only profs I know are profs like this? That's a tough question. Maybe you would be justified (edit: I should have said "feel like you must use") in using these tactics in this situation because you feel you have nothing to lose, since if you don't do this, you won't get the letter at all and won't be admitted anyways. So I agree that if you know for a fact that you won't get your letters without lying, then it might be worth the risk to lie because you have nothing to lose.

 

However, I think you are being very irresponsible here to advise others to do the same without giving the context. I don't think your advice counts as "helping others" and I don't think your advice here is generally true in most cases. I would even caution against using this advice even when an applicant feels that their LOR writers are not reliable. I would recommend that the applicant try to get a third party's opinion because the stress of application season can mess with your judgement. Taking the step of lying to your LOR writers is a giant risk and it is probably only a good idea if you actually have no other choice (but it is very hard to know this is the case).

 

Edit: I realise that I originally wrote this as if an applicant would be making an ethical decision when lying to LOR writers if they feel they have no other choice. I don't think this is true. Rather, I would still consider it an unethical decision and if I ended up making that decision because I felt I have no other choice, if things go badly, I would know that it was my fault that I chose to take the risk. If my profs found out and refused to write a LOR because I lied, I would 100% take the blame, I would not blame them at all or try to say that "they made me do it". So, I would have no sympathy for anyone who tried to go this route and get caught. 

Edited December 12, 2013 by TakeruK

[socioholic]

i think characterizing it as really "lying" is an exaggeration. our letters writers probably just need a date with which they can plan to have your letter done. whether it's the actual deadline is neither here nor there; unless you are asked for the actual program deadlines specifically, i doubt this would be a big issue. when i asked my letter writers, i simply stated i would like them to be submitted by such and such date.

Edited December 12, 2013 by socioholic

[TakeruK]

i think characterizing it as really "lying" is an exaggeration. our letters writers probably just need a date with which they can plan to have your letter done. whether it's the actual deadline is neither here nor there; unless you are asked for the actual program deadlines specifically, i doubt this would be a big issue. when i asked my letter writers, i simply stated i would like them to be submitted by such and such date.

 

I was mostly responding to the words and tone in Loric's original post, where Loric seems to advocate that one should purposely misinform one's LOR writers (which I think counts as "lying"). I agree with you that there is nothing ethically wrong with stating a preferred date for LORs to your writers. Personally though, I would not do this because when I am assigned a task, I would prefer to know the real deadline and manage my own time accordingly, so I always try to do this for other people too. What I did do though, was give my LOR writers a list of the deadlines and then in my conversation with them, say something like "I'll go less crazy if they're submitted ahead of time!" and I also let them know that I will be sending automatic reminders at certain dates before the deadlines. Usually in my conversation, they will ask how my sanity is going during the crazy application season, so there's plenty of chances to bring up the fact that maybe I would have more peace of mind if the letters were submitted early. 

Edited December 12, 2013 by TakeruK

[wandajune]

You can get the same effect by being honest with your professors. I told mine that I'm trying to get all the application materials in early in order to be considered for priority funding (which is definitely true for at least a few of my programs) and told them the deadlines that I set myself. They've all adhered to these deadlines thus far without an issue.

[Eigen]

In all my years here, I have yet to see such consistently bad information come from one applicant, over and over.

 

I've also noted in past years that it's always interesting to see significant and consistent differences in opinions between applicants, and current senior grad students. I would say that when people further along in a career path consistently and (unusually) are fairly united in disagreement with your advice, that you consider it strongly. They're likely more aware of norms in the field you may not yet know of.  

 

Lying to your letter writers is (i) an indication of the fact that you don't have a great working relationship with them, and (ii) a really bad idea, that has a fairly decent chance to backfire. 

 

Arguing that it's not unethical if the person who you're doing it to might be going to do something unethical/unprofessional is the old "two wrongs make a right" argument. In general, if you have to write long explanations of why what you're doing is "justified", I'd think it's a good indication that what you're doing would not widely be considered ethical or acceptable. 

 

If you have a letter writer that is bad with deadlines, I'd hope you have a good enough relationship with them to be honest. I have people I would/will tell that I'm worried about everything being in on time, and I'd appreciate it if they could get it done a few days/ a week early, as I know they're quite busy. No one that I would ask this of would bat an eye at it, they know they're busy and shouldn't put it off until the last minute too. 

 

And as to "not having a good relationship with your letter writers" having any bearing on getting into graduate school- i'd say it definitely says something about your academic/professional socialization, how good you are at networking, and accordingly how well you'll likely fit in at a graduate school, as a professional in the field, or in academia in the future. "Fit", "collegiality" and "networking" are usually one of the top reasons people do or don't get jobs, in academia or elsewhere. I don't think it's wrong for people to draw a correlative relationship between an applicants ability to do those things now and in the future.

[socioholic]

I was mostly responding to the words and tone in Loric's original post, where Loric seems to advocate that one should purposely misinform one's LOR writers (which I think counts as "lying"). I agree with you that there is nothing ethically wrong with stating a preferred date for LORs to your writers. Personally though, I would not do this because when I am assigned a task, I would prefer to know the real deadline and manage my own time accordingly, so I always try to do this for other people too. What I did do though, was give my LOR writers a list of the deadlines and then in my conversation with them, say something like "I'll go less crazy if they're submitted ahead of time!" and I also let them know that I will be sending automatic reminders at certain dates before the deadlines. Usually in my conversation, they will ask how my sanity is going during the crazy application season, so there's plenty of chances to bring up the fact that maybe I would have more peace of mind if the letters were submitted early. 

 

i agree; the tone of the post was purposefully provocative. loric must be a blogger.

[Loric]

In all my years here, I have yet to see such consistently bad information come from one applicant, over and over.

 

I've also noted in past years that it's always interesting to see significant and consistent differences in opinions between applicants, and current senior grad students. I would say that when people further along in a career path consistently and (unusually) are fairly united in disagreement with your advice, that you consider it strongly. They're likely more aware of norms in the field you may not yet know of.  

 

Lying to your letter writers is (i) an indication of the fact that you don't have a great working relationship with them, and (ii) a really bad idea, that has a fairly decent chance to backfire. 

 

Arguing that it's not unethical if the person who you're doing it to might be going to do something unethical/unprofessional is the old "two wrongs make a right" argument. In general, if you have to write long explanations of why what you're doing is "justified", I'd think it's a good indication that what you're doing would not widely be considered ethical or acceptable. 

 

If you have a letter writer that is bad with deadlines, I'd hope you have a good enough relationship with them to be honest. I have people I would/will tell that I'm worried about everything being in on time, and I'd appreciate it if they could get it done a few days/ a week early, as I know they're quite busy. No one that I would ask this of would bat an eye at it, they know they're busy and shouldn't put it off until the last minute too. 

 

And as to "not having a good relationship with your letter writers" having any bearing on getting into graduate school- i'd say it definitely says something about your academic/professional socialization, how good you are at networking, and accordingly how well you'll likely fit in at a graduate school, as a professional in the field, or in academia in the future. "Fit", "collegiality" and "networking" are usually one of the top reasons people do or don't get jobs, in academia or elsewhere. I don't think it's wrong for people to draw a correlative relationship between an applicants ability to do those things now and in the future.

 

And yet ironically here's your long explanation of why you're "justified."  Again.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Loric

[Loric]

i agree; the tone of the post was purposefully provocative. loric must be a blogger.

 

I make money writing on the internet, yes.

[Loric]

In all my years here, I have yet to see such consistently bad information come from one applicant, over and over.

 

I've also noted in past years that it's always interesting to see significant and consistent differences in opinions between applicants, and current senior grad students. I would say that when people further along in a career path consistently and (unusually) are fairly united in disagreement with your advice, that you consider it strongly. They're likely more aware of norms in the field you may not yet know of.  

 

Lying to your letter writers is (i) an indication of the fact that you don't have a great working relationship with them, and (ii) a really bad idea, that has a fairly decent chance to backfire. 

 

Arguing that it's not unethical if the person who you're doing it to might be going to do something unethical/unprofessional is the old "two wrongs make a right" argument. In general, if you have to write long explanations of why what you're doing is "justified", I'd think it's a good indication that what you're doing would not widely be considered ethical or acceptable. 

 

If you have a letter writer that is bad with deadlines, I'd hope you have a good enough relationship with them to be honest. I have people I would/will tell that I'm worried about everything being in on time, and I'd appreciate it if they could get it done a few days/ a week early, as I know they're quite busy. No one that I would ask this of would bat an eye at it, they know they're busy and shouldn't put it off until the last minute too. 

 

And as to "not having a good relationship with your letter writers" having any bearing on getting into graduate school- i'd say it definitely says something about your academic/professional socialization, how good you are at networking, and accordingly how well you'll likely fit in at a graduate school, as a professional in the field, or in academia in the future. "Fit", "collegiality" and "networking" are usually one of the top reasons people do or don't get jobs, in academia or elsewhere. I don't think it's wrong for people to draw a correlative relationship between an applicants ability to do those things now and in the future.

 

Can I take a moment and be honest with you Eigen?

 

While I feel that leaving my response to you with just a snide remark - fitting of the offensively smug superiority you use to address others - I want something to be perfectly clear. Lest you continue to have even the remotest inclination otherwise.

 

I think exceptionally little of you, your clique, and your ways. I think you'll amount to nothing, but worst of all think you've accomplished something. I think you'll make no mark on the world and die unknown, uninteresting, and as unappealing as a human being as ever. You've constructed this entire little world where butt-kissing and doing as your told is the right and righteous way of being and you tell other people to do so to stay within the good graces of your chosen peer set.

 

I'm just waiting for the day the real world gets ahold of you and does what it always does.

 

I don't doubt you can eat data and crap out conclusions so you're "good" at academia - but I seriously doubt you've ever learned anything and I would never believe any of your research work is going to amount to anything other than a gold star from your superior... which sadly is all you live for.

 

My attitude toward you and your equally rotten little cohorts is contempt - and it is "justified."

Edited December 13, 2013 by Loric

[HansK2012]

Can I take a moment and be honest with you Eigen?

 

While I feel that leaving my response to you with just a snide remark - fitting of the offensively smug superiority you use to address others - I want something to be perfectly clear. Lest you continue to have even the remotest inclination otherwise.

 

I think exceptionally little of you, your clique, and your ways. I think you'll amount to nothing, but worst of all think you've accomplished something. I think you'll make no mark on the world and die unknown, uninteresting, and as unappealing as a human being as ever. You've constructed this entire little world where butt-kissing and doing as your told is the right and righteous way of being and you tell other people to do so to stay within the good graces of your chosen peer set.

 

I'm just waiting for the day the real world gets ahold of you and does what it always does.

 

I don't doubt you can eat data and crap out conclusions so you're "good" at academia - but I seriously doubt you've ever learned anything and I would never believe any of your research work is going to amount to anything other than a gold star from your superior... which sadly is all you live for.

 

My attitude toward you and your equally rotten little cohorts is contempt - and it is "justified."

 

Grow up.

[Jungshin]

Well this is rather rude.

[spectastic]

brother, we can't ALL be wrong. 

[VioletAyame]

Can I take a moment and be honest with you Eigen?

 

While I feel that leaving my response to you with just a snide remark - fitting of the offensively smug superiority you use to address others - I want something to be perfectly clear. Lest you continue to have even the remotest inclination otherwise.

 

I think exceptionally little of you, your clique, and your ways. I think you'll amount to nothing, but worst of all think you've accomplished something. I think you'll make no mark on the world and die unknown, uninteresting, and as unappealing as a human being as ever. You've constructed this entire little world where butt-kissing and doing as your told is the right and righteous way of being and you tell other people to do so to stay within the good graces of your chosen peer set.

 

I'm just waiting for the day the real world gets ahold of you and does what it always does.

 

I don't doubt you can eat data and crap out conclusions so you're "good" at academia - but I seriously doubt you've ever learned anything and I would never believe any of your research work is going to amount to anything other than a gold star from your superior... which sadly is all you live for.

 

My attitude toward you and your equally rotten little cohorts is contempt - and it is "justified."

 

I'm honestly perplexed by you Loric. I have not responded to you directly before but I feel I must express my confusion. You seem to be perfectly capable of giving honest, insightly and funny advice to a lot of people around here, and I think they do appreciate it. On the other hand, you're prone to personal attack and ad hominem too frequently to be a calm, reasonable person, and dare I say, intellectual. You respond vehemently and aggressively to everyone who disagrees with you and express contempt for them. Why? Simply because they disagree with you? Even if they're wrong (in some case they're not, in other cases it's a matter of opinions, and yet other cases who the hell really knows), that's no reason for you to find the person contemptible, only the idea (but then why would you reserve such strong emotion for an idea on the Internet?). Or because they are snide and snarky? Snide and snarkly alone do not deserve contempt, and furthermore you are snide and snarky. Sometimes it's funny; sometimes it's not; but being upset with another's attitude while displaying the same attitude is just childish.

 

Perhaps I've just never encountered a poster like you before. People are either hostile and angry or calm and reasonable on the Internet in my experiece, but I guess it was a false dichotomy and you just opened my eyes. I'm gonna venture a call this "bipolar poster syndrome" and leave it at that. It's the way you are, and while I disagree with quite a few of your opinions, I don't find you contemptible.

 

What I don't understand is you seem to be anti-academia (or whatever version of academia you have in mind, I'm not actually in that world yet and thus I don't know whether you or your opponents are correct) and have a lot of problems with a lot of people here, why are you hanging around? You've been helping a lot of people so I don't have a problem with that, but 2 things: first, you're applying just like the rest of us, and even a lot of admitted student said there are just too many variables in the process to be sure of anything, so I find it interesting that you are always absolutely sure of what you say. I think a lot of people have problem with this tone and attitude than just the content of your opinion. Second, since you're so sure of your opinions, you should be able to defend them without resorting to name calling. If you think you can't fairly defend them because people are picking on/bullying/persecuting you (which I don't think they are), simply stop coming here. Why give them your time of the day, especially for those for whom you have so much contempt?

Edited December 13, 2013 by VioletAyame

[Vader Was Framed]

troll.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Vader Was Framed

[Monochrome Spring]

What I don't understand is you seem to be anti-academia (or whatever version of academia you have in mind, I'm not actually in that world yet and thus I don't know whether you or your opponents are correct) and have a lot of problems with a lot of people here, why are you hanging around? You've been helping a lot of people so I don't have a problem with that, but 2 things: first, you're applying just like the rest of us, and even a lot of admitted student said there are just too many variables in the process to be sure of anything, so I find it interesting that you are always absolutely sure of what you say. I think a lot of people have problem with this tone and attitude than just the content of your opinion. Second, since you're so sure of your opinions, you should be able to defend them without resorting to name calling. If you think you can't fairly defend them because people are picking on/bullying/persecuting you (which I don't think they are), simply stop coming here. Why give them your time of the day, especially for those for whom you have so much contempt?

 

I think you put this wonderfully. I think that Loric does give good advice in his own field, as he has a lot of work experience. And that has proven to be valuable to those applying for the first time in his field. But he doesn't accept that the majority of the people on this site are not in his field. Every field is going to operate in its own unique way. I don't expect anyone in his studies to follow the same 'rules' of my own, just as I don't assume that I must follow any of the 'rules' in his. I think the underlying issue here is that, since he is not in the typical field of study that is present on these boards, he probably feels outed as the minority. However, that is no reason to be hostile toward those who are in the majority on the boards and do want to go into academia.

 

Regardless of the field, however, it is never appropriate to lie to your professors, bosses, or advisors in order to gain letters of recommendation before the deadline. This is supposed to be a recommendation of your ability to succeed, not only in academia, not only in whatever field you go into graduate school for, but also in life. This recommendation is supposed to speak about your work and academic experiences, as well as your moral character. Lying is not good character, and as was stated before, two wrongs do not make a right. Despite Loric's disrespect for academia and those in it, and despite the examples of late letters which have resulted in too many disqualifications for hopeful applicants, lying in this manner is not, and never will be, justified. I hope that future applicants who read this thread will see how many members, both experienced and not, disagree with Loric's opinions on manipulating his superiors for letters of recommendation and will not follow the advice that he has given.