Are other graduate fields of study and programs stupid? Discuss!

[Loric]

I have to say, with this forum being a bit of a kludge of various interests.. some of the things that people are choosing to study leave me baffled.

 

Many.. many.. posters are going for fields that, while a bit cliche and "default" in nature, you can at least see why they're going for them. However, there's still these other programs that are outside the common interests.. but not really specialized in a "well you'd obviously need proper time to study that" sort of way.

 

They're the "Why don't you just apply for a job..?" fields and the "Ugh, stop trying to legitimize your hobby" fields. I'm sure there are others, but those immediately spring to mind.

 

Some of the areas I just don't get why you'd spend so much time, money, and effort to study at the graduate level. Why are people doing that...? What's that all about?

[fuzzylogician]

You are trolling again. Watch it.

[Canis]

Hmmm, despite the record - I'd call this: Starting a provocative conversation. Rather than trolling... So I'm going to feed the Provocative Conversation Starter.

 

The first thing that comes to mind are the hundreds of whiny opinion pieces showing up in HuffPo and elsewhere by college grads who don't understand why they weren't handed a job after finishing their B.A. in Medieval Literature.

[Loric]

Yeah, I knew a guy who did Medieval Studies who pretty much wet himself when he learned I studied some art at the Musee de Cluny in Paris. To him that location would be the epitome of his interests and "career."

 

In reality it's a dinky little museum with some.. "some" interesting pieces. The whole unicorn tapestry (you can see it recreated in the Harry Potter films on the wall of the Gryffindor common room) that people in that field rave about just seems silly once you've seen it.

[loquacious carton]

Slanting this question with different wording -- "why do people choose the fields they do for an advanced degree, particularly in cases where said degree is not necessary for employment":

 

Some of it comes down to 'different strokes for different folks' -- most people have likes and dislikes.

 

Some people want to teach in their fields, which requires an advanced degree in many cases.

 

The ante keeps getting upped every few years -- a Master's degree is becoming the new Bachelor's degree, and the Bachelor's degree is becoming the new high school diploma.  So this trend encourages a lot of people to continue with school.

 

For others it could be a personal goal.  Wanting to advance in their field.  Enjoyment.  There are some people who go on to graduate school because they don't know what else to do with their lives -- but this is probably distributed across many fields, not just those fields that have a more challenging employment outlook in terms of employer demand.

[Loric]

But should academia be supporting what is just someone's personal goal and interest?

 

Shouldn't pet projects be outside of academia..?

[loquacious carton]

But should academia be supporting what is just someone's personal goal and interest?

 

Shouldn't pet projects be outside of academia..?

 

I suppose it depends on the pet project. 

 

Without a strong interest in the subject matter, most people won't have the energy to make it through the obstacle course of an advanced degree.  I would think that to someone, cancer research, alternative fuel sources, the future of the English language, crop yields, and thought-provoking art could all be 'pet projects'.

 

Also research that seems useless to many today can yield very interesting applications down the road.  I saw a documentary on some professor who researched the math of folding shapes, i.e. origami.  His work is now being used on improving airbags in the auto industry.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

But should academia be supporting what is just someone's personal goal and interest?

 

Shouldn't pet projects be outside of academia..?

I think it depends on if there's a "job" available for that field. There are two types of jobs: industry and academic. Just because a field might not be able to land you a job that you couldn't have landed without the degree out in the "real world," there still might be a demand for professors or researchers in that field within academia. However, if there's no demand for the job in the real world AND no demand in academia, then, I agree, there probably shouldn't be an advanced degree for it. 

[i.am.me]

Wait, what?

 

I don't get it. 

 

What fields are the OP referring to in this post?  I guess, something peripheral to their field (which is what)?

[DerpTastic]

(Although this might be trolling, I believe there probably are a good chunk of people that do actually have this belief)

 

I think the term "useless" depends on the viewer. Not all research benefits everyone, or even that big a group of people. But a lot of things are discovered/invented unintentionally. So something important could come out of something you consider useless.

[TakeMyCoffeeBlack]

There's nothing wrong with knowledge for knowledge's sake, folks. 

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

There's nothing wrong with knowledge for knowledge's sake, folks.

Canis mentioned someone being upset when they couldn't find a job with a BA in Medieval Studies. Nothing wrong with knowledge for knowledge's sake but don't be bitter if you can't find a job.

[TakeMyCoffeeBlack]

Canis mentioned someone being upset when they couldn't find a job with a BA in Medieval Studies. Nothing wrong with knowledge for knowledge's sake but don't be bitter if you can't find a job.

 

That doesn't in any way indicate that the BA in Medieval Studies is useless anywhere other than the degree-related job market. But if you're applying for a job with a BA - and it's not in education or something else requiring licensing - Corporate Bank of USA doesn't care what you studied. But BA/BS studies are less about creating knowledge and more about learning what's already out there, and the OP seems less about that and more about continued education (most likely in the pursuit of contributing to the surrounding discussion, i.e. graduate school). 

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

That doesn't in any way indicate that the BA in Medieval Studies is useless anywhere other than the degree-related job market. But if you're applying for a job with a BA - and it's not in education or something else requiring licensing - Corporate Bank of USA doesn't care what you studied. But BA/BS studies are less about creating knowledge and more about learning what's already out there, and the OP seems less about that and more about continued education (most likely in the pursuit of contributing to the surrounding discussion, i.e. graduate school). 

I don't know much about the job market for other fields, but I know there probably are some fields where an MA or even a PhD will only land you a job within academia. If you want to work in academia and are passionate about the subject, nothing wrong with that. That being said, a lot of "skills" in the "real world" can't be taught. Just because you did well in a "useful" field like computer science, doesn't mean you aren't totally incompetent. I've taken classes with some bright students who are clueless at everything not contained within a syllabus. 

[TakeMyCoffeeBlack]

I don't know much about the job market for other fields, but I know there probably are some fields where an MA or even a PhD will only land you a job within academia. If you want to work in academia and are passionate about the subject, nothing wrong with that. That being said, a lot of "skills" in the "real world" can't be taught. Just because you did well in a "useful" field like computer science, doesn't mean you aren't totally incompetent. I've taken classes with some bright students who are clueless at everything not contained within a syllabus. 

 

But the studies themselves and the quality of intellect of the individual student are not synonymous, no? That BA in Medieval Studies (why is this the example? no different than a BA in classics, history or anthropology, if you ask me - and I have unbelievable respect for those fields) is not intrinsically without value, even if the student holding that BA in Medieval Studies doesn't know the difference between the Spanish Inquisition and Mel Brooks's parody. 

[ereissoup]

God forbid someone should choose to devote themselves to their passion rather than to deploying and exploiting their own labour as efficiently as possible. Some people go to school purely to learn, as TakeMyCoffeeBlack implied.

 

(This isn't a criticism of those who are merely using their interest as a stepping stone towards a career--I know plenty of people whose "passion" is to become a model capitalist. But to equate knowledge with money (why else are you talking about value and jobs?) is ridiculous and narrow-minded.)

[m-ttl]

But should academia be supporting what is just someone's personal goal and interest?

 

Shouldn't pet projects be outside of academia..?

 

But your example, the Musée de Cluny, absolutely would require an academic background for curatorial work. That's not a pet project. It may not be the most employable field, but this is not a pet project. Regardless of your personal feelings on the quality of the museum's holdings -- forgive me if I'm reluctant to feel you're the most qualified person to make such calls -- the people who work at museums are often or usually graduate scholars. 

 

If you were to have chosen any American museum, a master's or PhD is a standard. Acting as if Medieval studies couldn't be useful in a Medieval museum is a tad silly. The ease of finding a job in such a field is not easy, but that's why it requires a specialized degree... PhD's are meant to be highly specialized folks. Of course there isn't an overflow of such jobs. But that doesn't mean the studies are completely useless or impractical. 

 

But what would I know -- I only study museums.

Edited December 26, 2013 by m-ttl

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

But the studies themselves and the quality of intellect of the individual student are not synonymous, no? That BA in Medieval Studies (why is this the example? no different than a BA in classics, history or anthropology, if you ask me - and I have unbelievable respect for those fields) is not intrinsically without value, even if the student holding that BA in Medieval Studies doesn't know the difference between the Spanish Inquisition and Mel Brooks's parody. 

Oh yea, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying things such as Medieval Studies (or classics, history, anthropology) might not open up the job market for you, but if you're fine with having a career in academia or just using the knowledge to do your own work, that's fine. 

 

I also went kind of the opposite direction. "Real world" jobs require more than just an education. Some people just have a knack for things--such as sales, art, or creating things. Plus, in the job world, your personality can play a large role. Some people are too shy, awkward, naive, or clumsy to excel in certain jobs. School isn't gonna knock that out of you (at least not likely). My point is, just because someone got a "useful" degree, such as computer science or engineering, doesn't mean they're gonna do well in the real world. Some people are excellent at being students and clueless outside of a classroom. 

 

All in all, I guess I'm saying, someone with excellent natural skills (such as charisma, conversing, negotiating, being creative) can "overcome" an unmarketable degree. Whereas, even if someone has a marketable degree, if they lack other necessary skills (things you can't learn in school) they might not succeed. But this is just speaking in terms of the job market. There are a lot of corky people doing well in academia. For example, a corky economist might make a good professor/researcher, but he won't be able to sell anyone anything on Wall Street. 

[Loric]

But your example, the Musée de Cluny, absolutely would require an academic background for curatorial work. That's not a pet project. It may not be the most employable field, but this is not a pet project. Regardless of your personal feelings on the quality of the museum's holdings -- forgive me if I'm reluctant to feel you're the most qualified person to make such calls -- the people who work at museums are often or usually graduate scholars. 

 

If you were to have chosen any American museum, a master's or PhD is a standard. Acting as if Medieval studies couldn't be useful in a Medieval museum is a tad silly. The ease of finding a job in such a field is not easy, but that's why it requires a specialized degree... PhD's are meant to be highly specialized folks. Of course there isn't an overflow of such jobs. But that doesn't mean the studies are completely useless or impractical. 

 

But what would I know -- I only study museums.

 

But should entire swaths of academia be dedicated to a tiny market of jobs? There's far more of those programs than there are jobs, positions.. heck, probably more than there is reasonable to study (labor hours dedicated to the data, etc..)

 

I'm speaking from the perspective of wanting into a large industry that, only as of 2012, has exactly 1 program at 1 school. Are the dearth of programs for these sorts of things overkill?

 

Yeah, I get him wanting to go to the Cluny.. but he likely wont. We don't put everyone who wants to be an astronaut - or has even shown the aptitude or ability to be an astronaut - into astronaut training.

[Loric]

But what would I know -- I only study museums.

 

To which I retort.. and exactly how many museums in how many countries have you actually been to?

 

I'm pretty sure I know the answer.

[m-ttl]

To which I retort.. and exactly how many museums in how many countries have you actually been to?

 

I'm pretty sure I know the answer.

 

The answer is beyond my ability to count, as I was born abroad, and lived in two other countries besides the United States, and have been going to museums and historic sites on family trips since birth. But a rough estimate would be 5 different countries, and 40+ museums, regardless of whether or not you're counting "Museum" by ICOM's standards, or the AAM. I would say I remember at least 30 of those trips from childhood until now, but will gladly discount my infant adventures in Europe. I don't care to bother to myself with further listing states, countries, and museums. It's a waste of my time. My current degree is -- shocker -- museum studies. 

 

I certainly feel qualified to discuss how specialized or not my own degree is, given that I'm employed at a museum. Hint: Museum Studies covers botanical gardens, art museums, history museums, national parks, zoos, science museums, youth museums, historic sites and homes, maritime or military museums, arboretums, STEM centers, and aquariums, as well as certain non-profit galleries and conventions. So to specialize in a particular area of art or history doesn't seem odd to me at all. To suggest that someone from my field couldn't easily apply their knowledge to other non-profits, or even related for-profit work is a tad silly. The field, while hyper-competitive, is not non-existent. Cluny is a dream position for said example, not the only acceptable or available position ever. 

 

Do you mean to imply that Medieval studies is a single program in a field, or museum studies? Frankly I'm confused, and both claims are wrong. 

 

 

People who aren't cut out to be astronauts generally do other things. That's not a failure of the process of becoming an astronaut, however. Are there problems with trying to over-train large amounts of people in highly specialized degrees for only one job? Yes. But that doesn't mean the studies themselves are useless, it means we need to rethink who gets graduate degrees, why, and what they are going to do with them. 

Edited December 26, 2013 by m-ttl

[Loric]

Oh.. the funny part really is that you don't realize your statement about it being beyond your ability to count.. just assured me of your inability to count very high.

[ereissoup]

This entire thread is clearly part of some elaborate ruse perpetrated by Loric.

[Loric]

Well, leave it to someone in art history to over think it..

 

I don't think i've ever been framed as "perpetrator" before. Fascinating.

[ratlab]

What's your field Loric?