Jay's Brain

I made the switch from a business/sales career to psychology in my early 30s. I ended up having to go back and get a second undergrad degree in psychology, but this only took 4 semesters. I then applied for PhD programs, but did not receive a single interview, and so applied to and was accepted into a master's program. It took 2 more tries to gain admission to a PhD program after completing my master's degree. I'm currently 37 and a first year student in a clinical psychology PhD program.
Here are some things I learned (often the hard way!). I hope you find them helpful.
1. Research experience is the great equalizer. If you want to get into a PhD program in Psychology, get involved in a research lab, and preferably multiple labs, right now. Publications and posters count for quite a lot. Sure, GPA and GRE are important, but research is what gets you interviews and, subsequently, offers. Start thinking about questions that are interesting and meaningful to you. If you are having trouble with specific questions, then start with broad concepts. Read recent research papers with those keywords. As a general rule, you want to be included on at least one publication and have a few poster presentations when you apply for PhD programs. Again, this is a general rule. I got into a PhD program without a publication, for example.  I'll say more about this in point 4.
2. Do not place too much weight on your age. This one cuts both ways. I often worried that I was too old, wouldn't fit in, or graduate programs would be hesitant to accept a "old" person. I found, over the course of 3 application and interview phases, that programs valued my business background with respect to time management, leadership, and "big picture" approach to research and grants. However, I did feel that I spent more time during the interview process answering the "Why now?" question (when compared against my PhD interview peers; I made it a point to ask about their experiences).  My advice? Go out of your way to completely answer why you are making a career change in your personal statement. The more you can root this in recent academic experience, the better.
3. Don't expect your past academic history/performance to count for much. My first degree was in math. I was in the honors college and completed a senior thesis that was presented at a national conference. This essentially added nothing to my current PhD applications. Recent academic work, including GRE scores, are valued much more highly than past (<5 years) academic work. Many graduate programs required a psychology degree, so my math degree was not helpful. However, this provided me the opportunity to "prove" that I was every bit as good academically in my 30s as when I was 20.
4. Be ready to relocate. I understand wanting to stay in an area, but the reality of graduate work in psychology is you apply to a person more than to a program; this is especially true at the PhD level. I had to decide whether staying in one place was more important than chasing my goals/dreams. Your specific research interests may not be represented in New York City. Ultimately, if you have to stay put, then look up the faculty of local universities, catalog their research interests, and get involved in their research area. The potential problem here is that you may not be passionate/motivated in the research areas that are close to you.
5. Be prepared to get rejected. Psychology is competitive. Over the 5 years I applied to graduate programs (and got rejected 4 times), I felt that I kept getting older, but the other applicants stayed the same age. To translate, I was getting older and always competing against folks in their early-to-mid 20s. I followed-up with every single rejected application, asking for feedback and ways that I can improve. Then, over the subsequent year, I went out and improved that part of my application. I knew that a PhD program was the right thing for me and I was unwilling to accept some other kind of career. Use that as motivation and not frustration.
6. What is the specific job that you want? Now that you have read my novella, make sure that the degree you are seeking is consistent with the job you want. I was not sure from your post what field in psychology interests you and/or what specific job you want. You can then work your way backward and lay out a 5-7 year plan to make it happen.
I know this was quite long, but I hope it has helpful information. Best of luck!

It sounds like it would make the most sense for you to only apply to programs that you are serious about attending. Why apply to programs that you have no desire to attend and move to, and feel like are not a good fit. That would end up being money spent without any return for you.
I think it depends on whether you really want to attend THIS program or if you feel it is more important to attend any program and begin sooner (sort of weighing the short term and long term outcomes for you.)
The counselor in me would also say it is not crazy and seems both logical and high-risk but with some expected positive outcome attached to the risk. I am doing the same whenever I apply again. It is more important for me to have a good fit and meet my research goals rather than start sooner with a program that does not match. I think of PhD programs like marriage in that way. Why marry a program if I know it won't be a good fit for me?

I think it's a great first step. Definitely prepare as if it's a prelim interview. I skyped with my POI last year in October and now I'm working with her. She later invited me to visit her in person.
 
Best of luck!
 

It's been awhile since I've chimed in, but here's some insight since I have colleague who I met here on GradCafe who was in a similar situation as you (Canadian in the UK). Your CV is stellar and you have substantial experience that will make prospective supervisors very interested, particularly if you want to pursue the same line of work/research that you are currently devoting your time on. GPA-wise, you should determine whether your current transcripts meet the cutoffs. For most Canadian schools, we are looking at A- in the last two years. If you did well in your last year of undergrad, you may already meet this cutoff. Admissions with a Masters may also change the way each program determines your eligibility.
Two other questions for you to ponder:
1) Where do you want to practice? Each country has their own judicial system for their psychologists and mental health professionals. You're right that terminal Master clinicians are far and few between in Canada (though there is that current debate about what psychologist refers to, especially in Ontario). If you're Canadian, you may also be thinking about returning home after studying and working abroad. If you're set on clinical practice, completing a program in the UK may not give you the same abilities to practice in Canada and will be a huge time commitment if you choose to return to Canada for a MA/PhD after a more advanced program in the UK. 
2) Will you be able to access the same type of research or line of work in Canada? Are there programs/clinical researchers that you know you would apply to here in Canada? It sounds like you're quite passionate about the area of focus you are in, so you may want to do a little bit of research to see if this is something you can continue pursuing in any of the accredited clinical programs in Canada.

It's been awhile since I've chimed in, but here's some insight since I have colleague who I met here on GradCafe who was in a similar situation as you (Canadian in the UK). Your CV is stellar and you have substantial experience that will make prospective supervisors very interested, particularly if you want to pursue the same line of work/research that you are currently devoting your time on. GPA-wise, you should determine whether your current transcripts meet the cutoffs. For most Canadian schools, we are looking at A- in the last two years. If you did well in your last year of undergrad, you may already meet this cutoff. Admissions with a Masters may also change the way each program determines your eligibility.
Two other questions for you to ponder:
1) Where do you want to practice? Each country has their own judicial system for their psychologists and mental health professionals. You're right that terminal Master clinicians are far and few between in Canada (though there is that current debate about what psychologist refers to, especially in Ontario). If you're Canadian, you may also be thinking about returning home after studying and working abroad. If you're set on clinical practice, completing a program in the UK may not give you the same abilities to practice in Canada and will be a huge time commitment if you choose to return to Canada for a MA/PhD after a more advanced program in the UK. 
2) Will you be able to access the same type of research or line of work in Canada? Are there programs/clinical researchers that you know you would apply to here in Canada? It sounds like you're quite passionate about the area of focus you are in, so you may want to do a little bit of research to see if this is something you can continue pursuing in any of the accredited clinical programs in Canada.

I can empathize with how challenging it is to know what the best route is and how to strengthen your CV while economizing your time as much as you can!
With regard to your first question about a postgrad certificate/diploma to improve your grades - I think this is a great idea, especially if you take some courses you don't have. Eventually, you will need to take a social psych class anyways to fulfill the breadth requirements for registering as a psychologist. Maybe look into what courses you may be missing and will need in order to register, and use this time to get them out of the way before you start a grad program as well as boosting your GPA. A BSc doesn't ultimately matter when applying to clinical programs - plenty of people get in with BAs (myself included).
For your second question about doing a PhD in the UK and then coming back to do an additional PhD - this is a challenging decision.I will say that it is exceedingly uncommon in Canada to do a terminal clinical MSc/MA. Most programs are set up with the expectation that you continue on to your PhD after completing your masters. I'm not sure based on your post if you are mostly interested in clinical work or clinical research? Your decision between your PhD in the UK and a clinical psych program should ultimately come down to what you are most interested in doing research-wise. I don't think there is any reason to continue with your PhD in the UK if you ultimately want out of research in the end, since that won't get you doing clinical work. I think it is also unnecessary to do all the research involved in a clinical PhD if all you want to do is practice, since there are other options for working with the populations you want to work with that don't involve (as much) research. That being said, the truth of clinical programs is that most of those who graduate from them end up working in clinical practice and not in research. I think this is a fact that many ignore because of the research intensity during programs.
Taken together, in my opinion, you should consider taking some breadth psych courses you need to register (e.g., social psych, history of psych, etc.) and get your GPA up. This will not be a waste of time, as you will need to take these courses eventually if you want to be a clinical psychologist. Then, apply and see what happens. Your CV is otherwise stellar and I have no doubt someone would want to take you as a student so long as you meet the GPA cutoff. If you go through your first application cycle without success, reassess again what you want to do and go from there. 

I'm no longer in first year, but I found maintaining work-life balance to be a challenge and I'm constantly refining this as I get older in PhD years. That's why my first bit of advice that I give to incoming students is to build that balance into your routine so it becomes a habit! As grad students we face the conflicts of "What is good, is bad; what is bad, is good" syndrome (the less talked about cousin to Imposter Syndrome) where we can feel guilt and shame for not focusing on our research productivity and, instead, think that working many hours is a good thing (it's not. You'll feel burnt out and STILL feel bad). But grad school is a lifestyle and lifestyle habits would benefit the most from consistency. So practice self-care and build that into your routine. Try to set your schedule so you have time that is fixed AWAY from work and school and more on yourself and the close people by your side.
Also, remove push notifications on your phone so that you don't get bombarded by emails and feel the urge to reply right away. There's nothing worst than having a good day and then seeing the dreaded email from supervisors asking you about your progress! In grad school, you get A LOT of emails already!

I'm no longer in first year, but I found maintaining work-life balance to be a challenge and I'm constantly refining this as I get older in PhD years. That's why my first bit of advice that I give to incoming students is to build that balance into your routine so it becomes a habit! As grad students we face the conflicts of "What is good, is bad; what is bad, is good" syndrome (the less talked about cousin to Imposter Syndrome) where we can feel guilt and shame for not focusing on our research productivity and, instead, think that working many hours is a good thing (it's not. You'll feel burnt out and STILL feel bad). But grad school is a lifestyle and lifestyle habits would benefit the most from consistency. So practice self-care and build that into your routine. Try to set your schedule so you have time that is fixed AWAY from work and school and more on yourself and the close people by your side.
Also, remove push notifications on your phone so that you don't get bombarded by emails and feel the urge to reply right away. There's nothing worst than having a good day and then seeing the dreaded email from supervisors asking you about your progress! In grad school, you get A LOT of emails already!

I'm no longer in first year, but I found maintaining work-life balance to be a challenge and I'm constantly refining this as I get older in PhD years. That's why my first bit of advice that I give to incoming students is to build that balance into your routine so it becomes a habit! As grad students we face the conflicts of "What is good, is bad; what is bad, is good" syndrome (the less talked about cousin to Imposter Syndrome) where we can feel guilt and shame for not focusing on our research productivity and, instead, think that working many hours is a good thing (it's not. You'll feel burnt out and STILL feel bad). But grad school is a lifestyle and lifestyle habits would benefit the most from consistency. So practice self-care and build that into your routine. Try to set your schedule so you have time that is fixed AWAY from work and school and more on yourself and the close people by your side.
Also, remove push notifications on your phone so that you don't get bombarded by emails and feel the urge to reply right away. There's nothing worst than having a good day and then seeing the dreaded email from supervisors asking you about your progress! In grad school, you get A LOT of emails already!

Just got accepted off the waitlist for my dream school ?. Alternate for CGS-M but hopefully good news will come soon for that. 

In your last year of undergrad, I highly recommend finding a lab on your campus to volunteer with to get some experience with research, and a volunteer or paid work experience with a crisis center or local mental health facility to get some experience in a counseling/helping role.  These experiences will help to give you a better idea of what you want in your professional life and provide good experience to put on your CV in applying for graduate programs. 
There are several graduate programs which can lead to a career in mental health, but they take different lengths of time, have vastly different costs, lead to careers doing slightly to vastly different tasks, and require some very different experiences as prerequisites.  Several Master's programs can lead to licensure as an LPC - LMHC, MA/MEd/MS in Psychology/Counseling, and LMFT (you could also go the social work route, get an MSW and become an LCSW).  These programs are generally 2-3 years and focus on the craft of counseling, with little emphasis in research.  The cost for these programs varies wildly, and funding assistance varies greatly, but you'll be more likely to find assistantships and funding for a program at a large state university.  You'll also want to check on license requirements for your state - my state aligns their licensing for LPCs with CACREP so going to a CACREP accredited institution helps to keep from jumping additional hoops for licensure.  There are some opportunities for participation in research with a Master's degree, but your chances of being hired by a university or hospital to be a researcher or of receiving grants from major governmental entities are limited to nonexistant without someone with a PhD being a Co-I.  So this might be a good route if you want to be a therapist and don't have interest in pursuing research.  There are lots of jobs available at community clinics, hospitals/clinics, or in online therapy orgs for those with LPCs, and you can also open a private practice. 
If you want/need a doctoral level degree to pursue the career of your dreams, and want to learn to incorporate research into your clinical practice, but not perform research yourself, you might want to consider a Doctoral of Psychology, PsyD.  These are typically 3-5 year programs, typically teach you well how to understand research articles and incorporate the information into your clinical practice, however it is quite rare to find fully or even partially funded PsyD programs so these are often quite expensive.  Most of these programs don't require you to have a Master's and very few will waive any courses if you do come in with one, so it's not advisable to do a separate Master's degree first.  You'd be eligible for a job as a clinician at lots of hospitals/clinics, community clinics, online therapy orgs or open a private practice.  Typically you'll receive a little more in compensation with the PsyD than you would as an LPC, but not by a ton, and there are some places where they prefer those with doctorates so it's much easier to get a job (the VA health system being one - far more openings for PsyDs than LPCs, but they require APA accredited programs, so that limits your PsyD program choices by a lot).  PsyDs are also sometimes hired as professors in LPC oriented programs or as clinical directors at PhD programs, but it is very rare to find a PsyD with a tenure track job at a top university since those jobs require research and a PsyD program doesn't train you to be a researcher.
If you like research and want to learn to become an independent researcher, as well as receive training as a clinician, you'll want to look at APA accredited PhD programs (if you decide you only like the research and don't care about the clinical practice, you can look at non-APA accredited or research only PhD programs).  You can pursue clinical or counseling PhD programs, but if you already have a practitioner focused PhD program, like the LMHC or a Master's in Counseling, you'll be better suited to pursue a counseling psych PhD program.  Both clinical and counseling psych PhD programs are incredibly competitive, with clinical being the even more competitive between the two.  These programs are frequently partially or fully funded and will train you to be both a researcher and a clinician, with each program varying regarding the balance between the two.  Exactly what is covered in a "fully funded" program, varies between programs but generally that means you are working for the school part-time in some capacity - as a teaching assistant, research assistant, or general graduate assistant helping with program enhancement/development, and in exchange for that, your tuition is waived and you receive a stipend.  The amount of this stipend is never luxurious, but it's typically enough that most grad students make it work.  Typically you have to pay out of pocket for books and university fees (which I have seen range from a few hundred per semester to several thousand per semester), and insurance is becoming a more common thing to have to pay out of pocket for, but most universities have inexpensive student insurance you can purchase if you're too old to remain on your parents'.  Having a PhD from an APA accredited program opens the doors wide open regarding careers in the mental health field - virtually anything imaginable is a possibility.  For clinical jobs at hospitals there is rarely a pay difference between those with PhDs and those with PsyDs, but with a PhD you may have the opportunity to give lectures for Grand Rounds, help teach classes if it's a teaching hospital, be involved in research, or develop a hybrid career - working in several different places doing different things.  I've known many professors who teach, have a research lab, and have a clinical practice on the side, or do advocacy work/education on the side, etc.  The length of these programs varies depending upon whether you come in with a Master's degree or not, but 5-8 years is fairly standard.  Whether or not the program will accept transfer credit/waive courses if you have previously completed a Master's degree varies widely so you have to look at the program website and some programs specify that they prefer candidates with a Master's degree or straight out of undergrad, so that's important to know in advance. 
Regarding the logistics of getting to grad school, that entirely depends upon your individual situation - if you're location bound and cannot move for some reason (maybe you're the primary caregiver for an ailing family member, you have a spouse who cannot move, or you have special medical needs and changing doctors could put you at risk), then how many schools you apply to may be quite small and you may have to apply several cycles in a row before you are accepted somewhere.  Getting into a master's level program is much easier than a doctoral level program, and if you want a doc program with full funding you are virtually guaranteed to have to move.  It's typically recommended to apply to at least 7 PhD programs if you are applying around the country.  Last cycle I applied to 15, this cycle I applied to 14 (rejected from all last cycle, received 4 offers this cycle).  If your family has the financial means and good will to help you move - awesome, if not, you get to figure it out.  Occasionally some fully funded PhD programs will have small grants to help students move but those are rare.  Unfortunately, graduate programs are expensive all the way around - applying is expensive, traveling for interviews is expensive, moving is expensive, paying for books/fees is expensive, going to conferences is expensive, traveling for internship interviews is expensive.......it's all expensive and that is prohibitive to a lot of people who don't come from means.  Those costs, even in fully funded programs, are a significant consideration if you don't have a large saving account, family support, a spouse/partner who works and can support those costs, etc.
I always recommend filling out FAFSA every year - it doesn't take very long, and there are sometimes scholarships, etc. that require you to fill it out. So I find it's worth the 30-ish minutes every year to update it just in case it helps to get you more money There are different rules for how things are considered for grad school vs undergrad, and I'm not fully certain about those, but I do know that at some point in grad school you will no longer be considered as a dependent of your parents.  If you currently receive no support from your parents, there is a process to be considered independent during undergrad according to FAFSA, and you can talk to your school's financial aid office about how to go about that (it's been a long time since I did that and I don't remember what all I had to do).
Good luck!  You have a lot to consider, but luckily you have tons of potential avenues to pursue your goal of a career in mental health.  You just have to decide which one is the best fit for you.

Sending warmth and positive vibes to everyone who has been going through this process! This was my second round of applications and while I am so grateful and excited about my acceptance this year, I know how incredibly painful a process it can be  Congratulations to those who have received their acceptances, and to those who may be waiting or will be applying again next year, I'm sending strength your way!! Keep your hopes up!! It's not over until it's over  
School: York University
Concentration: Clinical Psychology 
Type: MA
Date of acceptance: Unofficially March 25, 2019; Officially March 27, 2019
Notified by: Call from POI on March 25, 2019, and received official offer letter from Graduate Program Secretary March 27, 2019
Any other York folks out there??

It could be program-dependent but I heard back during the last week of March in 2017. Regardless, both doctoral and masters-level decisions should be released soon!!

Hey Everyone! My name is Jake, and I was referred to this forum by a colleague of mine. I'm a Master's Candidate in Sport and Exercise Psychology at California State University Long Beach.
I recently started up a YouTube channel called "Championship Cognition" to provide athletes with mental skills to dominate in sport.
Being that sport psychology is a branch of psychology, I was wondering if you all could check out my channel and let me know if there are ways to alter my content for better instruction. My passion is to help others, so I want to be sure to do so. I appreciate any and all feedback! I provided a link to the channel below:
Championship Cognition YouTube Link

I agree with previous responses that with a non-clinical, experimental program it is still possible to get into a PhD Clinical Psychology program (with caveats). The Masters will help you generate some research traction, perhaps allow you to publish or present at conferences, and that is important for your development when pursuing a PhD later on.
With that being said, there is a strong likelihood that you will need to supplement your training with clinical courses either way. Anecdotally, I have a colleague who completed her counselling Masters at TC and had to complete the full MA/PhD in Clinical Psychology in the program that I am currently in. I had another colleague who completed a different Masters outside of Psychology and entered at the PhD level. Unless its a direct-entry PhD program with no Masters, most programs that are MA/PhD are lengthier because there are a lot of clinical requirements that are needed during the 2 years of the Masters. The difference between my two colleagues is that the latter's Masters research was more relevant to the clinical lab that he was accepted into. Both of them still had to take the introductory clinical courses regardless of the level that they entered at.
Either program you choose, a recommendation is to get as much research experience as possible out of it. If you did go to UBC for the research methods program, you should try to merge your clinical interests (what populations are you interested in working with?) with that Masters to show that you have the relevant skills to pursue a PhD in clinical psychology. Likely you will have to take additional courses to supplement anyway, and, possibly, another Masters. If that's the case, maybe the most cost-effective program will be more useful. 

I have a colleague who completed his doctorate at Adler, completed several accredited practicum placements in well-recognized hospital settings, and currently has a position at one of these hospitals. I would say that this is a rare outcome for a PsyD graduate, but not impossible. You may want to connect with the program and ask them where recent graduates have found employment to see what historical information they can provide. 

Echoing those above, having a MSc with relevant research is sometimes sufficient to receive a direct-entry into PhD. I've had several colleagues do this. With that being said, look at the programs you are applying to and what is expected or required at the MA and PhD levels. Often students with a previous Masters assume that it'll cut their time in the program to apply into PhD. In reality, you will likely have to catch up all of the MA clinical courses and complete all of the clinical requirements in the first two years of the program WHILE trying to juggle external practicum applications, dissertation proposals, and other PhD-level requirements at the same time. A lot of the Canadian programs are MA/PhD because they are packed with degree requirements. You may find that you are not really shaving that much time off by foregoing the Masters.

I know many people who have gone into clinical programs after completing an experimental MA. It’s a great chance to get more research experience and show you can do grad coursework. 
However, you’d most likely have to apply to the clinical MA rather than PhD because of the clinical coursework and practicum (but you might get credit for stats courses, etc.). Most programs reserve PhD slots for their own MA students and don’t accept external applicants. There are a few exceptions, of course.

Just applied to 25 research coordinator positions, with more to come. Let's dooooo thissss.

Come back as a veteran in a year or two and prove those five schools wrong. Best of luck @higaisha!

Come back as a veteran in a year or two and prove those five schools wrong. Best of luck @higaisha!

Come back as a veteran in a year or two and prove those five schools wrong. Best of luck @higaisha!

Come back as a veteran in a year or two and prove those five schools wrong. Best of luck @higaisha!

Come back as a veteran in a year or two and prove those five schools wrong. Best of luck @higaisha!

Come back as a veteran in a year or two and prove those five schools wrong. Best of luck @higaisha!