Applications 2019

[TMP]

5 hours ago, latecalifornia said:

to be clear, being in a top-20 program means being smarter and more motivated than somebody at KU? 

Absolutely not.  Absolutely not.  There are some mediocre Ivy PhDs who get too complacent with resources guaranteed to them (i.e. funding package) and they just don't produce good work as someone, say, from Kansas, who may be much more motivated to "prove" that s/he is worthy of national fellowships, Fulbright, etc. and additional university funds by making sure that his/her work is very compelling and cutting-edge and trying to publish in at least one or two journal articles.  And a top notch adviser to go to boot.

[psstein]

3 hours ago, TMP said:

Absolutely not.  Absolutely not.  There are some mediocre Ivy PhDs who get too complacent with resources guaranteed to them (i.e. funding package) and they just don't produce good work as someone, say, from Kansas, who may be much more motivated to "prove" that s/he is worthy of national fellowships, Fulbright, etc. and additional university funds by making sure that his/her work is very compelling and cutting-edge and trying to publish in at least one or two journal articles.  And a top notch adviser to go to boot.

To add onto this, one of the worst talks I've ever heard have come from an Ivy PhD doing an Ivy postdoc.

[coursera]

Anyone else got accepted from UNC-Chapel Hill? I hadn't even made the connection that they requested interviews with the promising applicants. Disappointed that I didn't even get the interview offer.

[oikos]

11 hours ago, villageelliot said:

Just discovered this forum and what a stress reliever and inducer it is simultaneously!

I'm currently eagerly awaiting decisions from Georgetown, W&M, Duke, NYU, Columbia, Harvard, U Pitt, Johns Hopkins, U Penn, and BU. My specialty is the 18th- early 19th c. Atlantic world focusing on the intersection of the British/American and French Atlantic. Anyone applying the same schools with similar interests? These next few weeks are going to kill me so it'd be nice to commiserate. 

Good luck to everyone!

Shocked you did not apply to Chicago?

[I_Am_In_Paine]

5 hours ago, oikos said:

Shocked you did not apply to Chicago?

I looked into it. Didn't seem like a good fit for me and I really didn't want to live in Chicago. My advisor told me to cap myself at 10 schools and I just felt the other 10 were much better fits.

[DanaJ]

19 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Has anyone heard from Notre Dame about interviews yet?

No, I've been checking the application portal. I assumed I just hadn't gotten in, but I would think they would at least update an application status if they had made interview decisions.

[AP93]

1 hour ago, DanaChristine said:

No, I've been checking the application portal. I assumed I just hadn't gotten in, but I would think they would at least update an application status if they had made interview decisions.

Still no word here either...I am not shocked that I didn't receive an interview request, though am surprised that there has yet to be anyone on here claim an interview! 

Maybe they're all preparing for interviews rather than refreshing grad-cafe?? 

Edited January 23, 2019 by AP93

[gszea]

On 1/23/2019 at 3:06 PM, DanaChristine said:

No, I've been checking the application portal. I assumed I just hadn't gotten in, but I would think they would at least update an application status if they had made interview decisions.

I also haven't heard back from Notre Dame. I was wondering if one of you located in the US give them an anonymous call to see if they already sent out the interviews or if they are running late? Perhaps we can get a definite answer this way. Since I am located outside the US, it will be quite costly for me to call. I am pasting the history department's number here if anyone is interested in clarifying our minds: [redacted - the mods]. Thanks : )

[DanaJ]

1 hour ago, AP93 said:

Still no word here either...I am not shocked that I didn't receive an interview request, though am surprised that there has yet to be anyone on here claim an interview! 

Maybe they're all preparing for interviews rather than refreshing grad-cafe?? 

I wish I weren't refreshing grad cafe! I would be doing the same, but I would expect someone to post if they had gotten an interview, I'm sure they interview enough to students that SOMEONE would have posted. They were my "long shot school" anyway, but I would still like to hear something! I didn't expect to get in, but you never quite know what they could be looking for.

[ashiepoo72]

13 hours ago, psstein said:

To add onto this, one of the worst talks I've ever heard have come from an Ivy PhD doing an Ivy postdoc.

Same. Something I wished I'd asked during prospective visits is how each department preps students for the job market. I was lucky to end up somewhere that really emphasizes mock job talks, drafting teaching statements, etc. but as people this year start receiving acceptances, I hope they're more proactive than I was.

Also, it's still really really important to look at placement records and to be suspicious of programs that aren't transparent about them. I would bet that Ivy PhD still got a job somewhere.

[dr. t]

On 1/22/2019 at 6:03 PM, Vergangenheitsbewältigung said:

Could you say a little more about how to approach this question, or some examples of the kinds of things that make a PhD graduate stand out on the job market? Do you think about this mainly in terms of developing a useful contribution to discussions in the field?

Sure! For me the big three are:

Productivity: how many publications does the average new TT professor in your field have? Can you produce that many on top of your dissertation? What's your timeframe? (I'm doing well here IMO - I hope to go on the market with 4 publications)

Grants: are you winning competitive external grants? These are a major sign that people outside your university think your work is valuable, and money begets money. (I'm getting my ass kicked here and it's a big source of stress)

Relevance: is your project interesting outside of your subfield? Does it talk to contemporary trends in the academy? In short, will members of a diverse hiring committee think it's cool? (This hangs a lot on how well my dissertation does what I want. People are intrigued but want to see solid proof.)

 

23 hours ago, latecalifornia said:

to be clear, being in a top-20 program means being smarter and more motivated than somebody at KU? 

No, lots of dumb people get into good programs and excel there (Ben Carson is an example often in the news). And lots of smart people come from disadvantaged backgrounds of one kind or other and don't look as "smart" in the application process because of it - I'd say about 1/3 of the people I know in top PhD programs have a professor already in their extended family. I've been publicly mocked during my (Ivy) MA program for having to work in a grocery store to pay for college.

But that's how search committees think. And if you undertake that critical self-examination I mentioned, you must ask yourself why, if you are as smart and as motivated as you think you are, you didn't get into [good program here]. You may have a very good answer to this question, but always remember that the easiest person to fool here is yourself.

17 hours ago, TMP said:

Absolutely not.  Absolutely not.  There are some mediocre Ivy PhDs who get too complacent with resources guaranteed to them (i.e. funding package) and they just don't produce good work as someone, say, from Kansas, who may be much more motivated to "prove" that s/he is worthy of national fellowships, Fulbright, etc. and additional university funds by making sure that his/her work is very compelling and cutting-edge and trying to publish in at least one or two journal articles.  And a top notch adviser to go to boot.

This is absolutely true. I've seen people roll out with no publications and then act shocked when they don't pick up one of the 4 (!) TT jobs in their subfield that year. But it's unwise to focus on individual behavior over general trends. Humans tend to latch on to any and every exceptional case they find that gives them hope. 

I've also seen several Ivy PhDs have their absolute pick, even in the worst job market ever.

14 hours ago, psstein said:

To add onto this, one of the worst talks I've ever heard have come from an Ivy PhD doing an Ivy postdoc.

Case in point.

I think we all have seen a candidate with an excellent CV absolutely tank a job talk. But my interpretation of this is story is different: that guy who flopped the talk not only got an Ivy-league postdoc, they also got a campus invitation despite their inability to clutch it out. And why do you think that is? 

Never mind the number of times I've seen an Ivy PhD give a worse job talk (but not disastrous) than a candidate from a lower-ranked school and get the job offer anyway.

(FTR the worst job talk I've ever seen was a professor trying to jump ship from @TMP's department ? )

[Sigaba]

 

2 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

And if you undertake that critical self-examination I mentioned, you must ask yourself why, if you are as smart and as motivated as you think you are, you didn't get into [good program here]. You may have a very good answer to this question, but always remember that the easiest person to fool here is yourself.

 

Before the sidebar on the quality of Ivy-trained historians goes much further along the current trajectory (because we all have stories to tell, and none of us are bitter), I recommend that aspiring graduate students (if not current graduate students as well) focus on @telkanuru's point. 

Among the easiest and self-destructive paths one can walk as a grad student, as a worker bee, and, maybe, as a person, is questioning the qualifications and worthiness of others who get what you want. Yes, critical questions about processes and outcomes and bias and power must be asked. And, as T points out, the more difficult but most productive critical questions are (most) often the one asks when looking in the mirror.*

(If you want to benchmark yourself against Ivies, take very deep dives into the many threads in the history forum. Why are there so few of them on this BB, year after year? Why do they ask fewer questions? Can one identify qualitative differences in their general comportment, critical thinking and writing skills relative to non-Ivies? If such differences exist, what can one do in the here and now to learn from those differences?)

______________________

* A personal note. While/shortly after preparing my application to Happyland University, I went through my transcript to figure out why my UG GPA was what it was. Time and again, I could identify specific decisions and broader patterns that resulted to me choosing not to work harder. When I was later told that I didn't get into Happyland University because of "politics," I knew that the person giving me the news was being polite; long before "politics" became a factor, I just didn't work hard enough. (Had I worked harder, I'd arguably would have known that the work I picked for the book review was not going to cut it...)

[AP]

1 hour ago, ashiepoo72 said:

Same. Something I wished I'd asked during prospective visits is how each department preps students for the job market. I was lucky to end up somewhere that really emphasizes mock job talks, drafting teaching statements, etc. but as people this year start receiving acceptances, I hope they're more proactive than I was.

Also, it's still really really important to look at placement records and to be suspicious of programs that aren't transparent about them. I would bet that Ivy PhD still got a job somewhere.

This is great advice. I would another important aspect of professionalization which is how departments prepare students for jobs beyond academia (aka 'Alt-acs'). This is an important questions even if you are not interested in working in libraries, industry, or other organizations because it helps you measure how the department interacts with the reality of the market. The academic job market is a disaster, but that doesn't mean that departments shouldn't be doing anything. 

There are several people in my program who know they don't want to be academics and have pushed for changes in the professionalization options. This has forced faculty to rethink their position as trainers and broaden the scope of applicability of the skills they teach. Eg: Instead of being only about job talks, my department fosters presentation skills for the wider public. Instead of focusing only on research papers, an alternative assignment some professors accept are a series of Op-Eds. 

Ask these questions. Even if you don't care about the answer. They will tell you things about the department beyond the response. 

[MrPurple]

Sorry, I'm a bit lost here, but why are we using the Ivy distinction? There are so many top programs that aren't Ivy schools and perform phenomenally (e.g. Wisconsin, Michigan, Chicago, Berkeley, etc.). I'd rather attend Chicago than Brown or Cornell in most subspecialties. Maybe I'm just missing the point? 

[psstein]

1 hour ago, telkanuru said:

Case in point.

I think we all have seen a candidate with an excellent CV absolutely tank a job talk. But my interpretation of this is story is different: that guy who flopped the talk not only got an Ivy-league postdoc, they also got a campus invitation despite their inability to clutch it out. And why do you think that is? 

Never mind the number of times I've seen an Ivy PhD give a worse job talk (but not disastrous) than a candidate from a lower-ranked school and get the job offer anyway.

(FTR the worst job talk I've ever seen was a professor trying to jump ship from @TMP's department ? )

This was actually not a job talk, but a workshop presentation. The worst talk I've ever seen was about chronobiology, from a professor at another big state university. He then gave a talk for a position in history, which was apparently just as bad. Mind you, this guy had won a major prize for his book, too. I've seen another awful talk from a Yale PhD who already had a tenured job.

I think I know who you're talking about with the "job talk from hell." PM incoming.

2 hours ago, ashiepoo72 said:

Also, it's still really really important to look at placement records and to be suspicious of programs that aren't transparent about them. I would bet that Ivy PhD still got a job somewhere.

Not to my knowledge, actually. I just looked her up.

6 minutes ago, MrPurple said:

Sorry, I'm a bit lost here, but why are we using the Ivy distinction? There are so many top programs that aren't Ivy schools and perform phenomenally (e.g. Wisconsin, Michigan, Chicago, Berkeley, etc.). I'd rather attend Chicago than Brown or Cornell in most subspecialties. Maybe I'm just missing the point? 

I don't mean "Ivy" in the strict sense of the word. I mean "Ivy" in the sense of an elite program with routinely good placement. It's also highly sub-field dependent. Wisconsin's environmental history side is certainly among the top in the US. The HoS here is better than Chicago, on the basis that Chicago doesn't have much of a program.

[dr. t]

46 minutes ago, MrPurple said:

Sorry, I'm a bit lost here, but why are we using the Ivy distinction? There are so many top programs that aren't Ivy schools and perform phenomenally (e.g. Wisconsin, Michigan, Chicago, Berkeley, etc.). I'd rather attend Chicago than Brown or Cornell in most subspecialties. Maybe I'm just missing the point? 

Yeah, what @psstein said - it's just an easy shorthand for HYP + Berkeley, Chicago, the combination of which have awarded PhDs to something like half of US history profs.

Wisconsin and Michigan aren't really in that upper tier - they're more the top-20 mentioned above, along with Brown and Cornell. We tend to split applicant pools.

[Karou]

Just got word that I got into Duke! It's my first choice, and I'm so incredibly excited!! So if you see that admit on the results page, it's mine.

I'm a bit shy about sharing my focus/POI on here because anonymity etc, but if you've applied to Duke and you're curious, feel free to PM me!

[HardyBoy]

Congratulations, @Karou!!! May this be the first of many happy posts.

[fordlandia]

That's awesome @Karou - congratulations!

[Karou]

Thank you! And indeed, may it be the first of many happy posts!

I have seen the PMs and will get to them right after I post this, but as a general piece of advice (if you could call it that) for Duke applicants, if you haven't set up a OneLink account, do it! You can do so here:  https://accounts.oit.duke.edu/onelink/lookup I hadn't set it up as I wasn't even aware of its existence, and it took an agonizing ten minutes to get from the "a decision has been made" email to the actual decision! And that's after I refreshed my application portal three times in utter confusion because there was nothing new there. Blame it on the nerves I guess haha.

[HardyBoy]

I just found out that I got into UC Davis. Doing a happy dance!

[psstein]

3 hours ago, telkanuru said:

Yeah, what @psstein said - it's just an easy shorthand for HYP + Berkeley, Chicago, the combination of which have awarded PhDs to something like half of US history profs.

Wisconsin and Michigan aren't really in that upper tier - they're more the top-20 mentioned above, along with Brown and Cornell. We tend to split applicant pools.

I agree that HYP+ Berkeley and Chicago represent a majority of TT US history professors, but I do want to point out that the study has some significant flaws, one of which is that it measures placement by "node" vs. placement by numbers. That's not a major issue due to the fact it only measures R1 placement, but it is one to consider. I think it ranks Brandeis in the top 10, which, based on numbers, is not accurate. Brandeis has an exceptional Jewish history program, but there are quite few Jewish history openings across the US.

There's also the incredibly important issue of sub-fields, advisor reputation, etc. The study is useful to understand the contours of the field, but one is far better served hunting down recent graduates' placement than solely relying on that study.

[jrac0589]

22 hours ago, tellme said:

Anyone else got accepted from UNC-Chapel Hill? I hadn't even made the connection that they requested interviews with the promising applicants. Disappointed that I didn't even get the interview offer.

I got my acceptance to UNC today.

Not sure that you need to worry about a formal interview. I had reached out to a professor in Sept. and she called me to discuss my research interests the next week. It was very informal. I hadn’t had any requests for a formal interview. Good luck to you, keeping my fingers crossed!

[Sigaba]

Please exercise care when asking questions and interpreting answers about the training graduate students receive for the job market and placement.

I specifically recommend not having preconceived notions of what information a department should have readily available or what training programs should be in place. Figure out ways to get your questions answered while also minimizing the risk of coming across like you're telling people how they should do their jobs and/or you're putting hatched chickens in front of the light at the end of the tunnel. 

It's not so much what you ask, but how.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Sigaba

[ashiepoo72]

6 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

I just found out that I got into UC Davis. Doing a happy dance!

PM me if you have any questions

Edited January 24, 2019 by ashiepoo72