2021 Applicants Forum

[mrvisser]

1 hour ago, WolfMan said:

How does the admissions process even work? Do the faculty members read our work or do volunteering TA's read our work? Are the decisions reached by consensus or do separate people choose the admitted? I'm assuming that there is like a first screening where all the totally unqualified applicants are siphoned out based on not meeting length, GPA, or other reqs...

So many questions.

The only process I've learned about in detail is Iowa’s. They have two people each read half of applicants' writing samples (about 500 each), and I believe these readers are writers-in-residence. They mark up the writing samples with their thoughts, and then the director, Samantha Chang, reads every writing sample submitted, all 1,000-some of them. Then she selects about 60 of them to go forward, and those she has chosen are read by an admissions committee. The committee selects who gets in from there.

[Ydrl]

Ssssssh, this never happened.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Ydrl
Keep scrolling.

[Starbuck420]

7 hours ago, mrvisser said:

The only process I've learned about in detail is Iowa’s. They have two people each read half of applicants' writing samples (about 500 each), and I believe these readers are writers-in-residence. They mark up the writing samples with their thoughts, and then the director, Samantha Chang, reads every writing sample submitted, all 1,000-some of them. Then she selects about 60 of them to go forward, and those she has chosen are read by an admissions committee. The committee selects who gets in from there.

Yeah, I saw this video too. Nice of them to put that stuff out there

It was a little disheartening to me, honestly, to see that one person has so much power in the process. It sounds like many of the top programs do something similar, where they narrow it down to ~60 and choose from there -- Syracuse has a similar video out on the Web somewhere -- which makes sense just from a logistical perspective, because of course you can't rule by committee on over 1k applications. But still, think of the enormous impact that Iowa has on US and even world literature, and then consider the immense power of this one person as a gatekeeper for this program, and then also for all of US literature by extension. Perhaps it is as Kanye says: "No one Prof (not even the Elizabeth M. Stanley Professor in the Arts) should have all that power"

Not sure if this is going to a be a popular comment here, but I feel like there has to be a way to make our literary culture a little bit less elitist, because this process and the culture more generally are elitist in the most literal sense (small number of people with greatly outsize impact on the culture relative to their numbers and cultural authority outside of the academy). I think that maybe we as outsiders sometimes defend this culture because we hope to be absorbed into it, but the fact that we could be absorbed into it doesn't really make it more just or defensible. Not an knock on Iowa necessarily, and not a knock on the individuals who operate/maintain this system. It's just that we have to actually change the system, I think

[JPReinhold]

38 minutes ago, Starbuck420 said:

Not sure if this is going to a be a popular comment here, but I feel like there has to be a way to make our literary culture a little bit less elitist... It's just that we have to actually change the system, I think

Until there is better funding from our society for the arts, the process for selecting who gets that funding will have to be competitive. I don't know that I agree that it is particularly elitist - thought there is some MFA snobbery on the publishing side (agents, magazines, publishers). From what I understand, Iowa is quite fair in their assessments and really looks to the writing sample.

Who has access to MFAs has gotten more diverse in terms of race, nationality, gender identity, economics, etc. in recent years (though the lit world really is still SO white).

When you say it is "elitist", can you explain in what sense? How would you like to change that? 

What do you suggest as an alternative? 

Edited January 25, 2021 by JPReinhold
clarify "snobbery" to be on the publishing side.

[forthetruththeyburnyou]

16 hours ago, CCort said:

Gotcha -  I suppose it won't be that helpful for me because I'm applying to PhD programs, but thank you!  

There's actually a PhD draft, too! The group name is "Creative Writing PhD Draft." And there's just been the one group for all cycles from ~2017 onward. 

[Starbuck420]

23 minutes ago, JPReinhold said:

When you say it is "elitist", can you explain in what sense?

here, just referring to system that is controlled by a small number of people, who have an outsize impact on the system relative to their numbers and democratic authority

imo, it's important to note that Iowa, Brown, etc have not achieved their status as centers of cultural production by appealing to the reading public, or to any other portion of the public, but rather by appealing to people at other elite institutions (including universities, publishers, places like the NEA/NEH, etc). I guess that's what I mean when I say they lack "democratic authority:" their authority to credential people as literary authors is given not by the public, but is instead given by a small number of people who have by and large already received these credentials

Obviously, this system has benefits and drawbacks. It's great if you can gain entry, but it's bad if you're one of the millions of people who (for example) does not have a bachelors degree, or is unable to attend grad school in the US for some other reason (can think of dozens of reasons why this would be the case), or even if you're someone with an MFA from a less selective institution or a low-res program, though this group is much less disadvantaged than the previous two. I think our literary culture would be richer if more/some of these people were included

34 minutes ago, JPReinhold said:

Until there is better funding from our society for the arts, the process for selecting who gets that funding will have to be competitive

to this: absolutely. but, the competition could be more democratic, the power less concentrated in the hands of a very small number of highly credentialed people. I think we can take a look at the 20th century and before (and even today) and accept that there are many, many people without these credentials who are producing art of a very high quality. 
 

35 minutes ago, JPReinhold said:

What do you suggest as an alternative? 

I don't really have an image of an alternate system cooked up in my head. I think it's fine to point out that something is wrong even though I don't have a comprehensive solution figured out

A good place to start would be with agents: they need to start trawling places other than Iowa, Brown, and a few other schools. Even if you accept that the credentialing process we have now is basically good, there are (as we all know) dozens of highly selective places other than Iowa where you can go to look for good writers. Literary agents, by and large, do not visit these places. 

I also think of Norway, whose elite writing academy does not require students to have a BA/BS. This opens it up to a whole swath of the population who would otherwise have been excluded

Also: I'm truly not trying to be aggressive, or to take a dump on everyone for participating in this process (I am obviously also participating in the process, which is taxing, brutal, etc), or to discourage anyone from applying or anything like that. I just think the system is flawed and frustratingly so. I also think that sometimes it often excludes the wrong people.

Finally: I am not referring to myself when I say "excludes the wrong people," since the jury's still out on whether I'm in or not (though like many others, I am planning for the worst - :~'{ ). 

good tidings, positive vibes to all

 

[Oklash]

Quick update George Washington University’s English Graduate Program: I emailed them regarding my application and they were very cordial and incredibly friendly. But they have not even received the applications from the main graduate office ?! My toes are tied in knots and they haven’t even seen my application yet. I dont know whether to be happy or sad.

 

—-hi i posted this in the wrong literary forum. But I’m pretty sure if the English Literature department has not recieved   applications, many other departments haven’t either recieved thiers either 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Oklash
sorry i am in the wrong literary

[lilacbread]

3 hours ago, Starbuck420 said:

Yeah, I saw this video too. Nice of them to put that stuff out there

It was a little disheartening to me, honestly, to see that one person has so much power in the process. It sounds like many of the top programs do something similar, where they narrow it down to ~60 and choose from there -- Syracuse has a similar video out on the Web somewhere -- which makes sense just from a logistical perspective, because of course you can't rule by committee on over 1k applications. But still, think of the enormous impact that Iowa has on US and even world literature, and then consider the immense power of this one person as a gatekeeper for this program, and then also for all of US literature by extension. Perhaps it is as Kanye says: "No one Prof (not even the Elizabeth M. Stanley Professor in the Arts) should have all that power"

Not sure if this is going to a be a popular comment here, but I feel like there has to be a way to make our literary culture a little bit less elitist, because this process and the culture more generally are elitist in the most literal sense (small number of people with greatly outsize impact on the culture relative to their numbers and cultural authority outside of the academy). I think that maybe we as outsiders sometimes defend this culture because we hope to be absorbed into it, but the fact that we could be absorbed into it doesn't really make it more just or defensible. Not an knock on Iowa necessarily, and not a knock on the individuals who operate/maintain this system. It's just that we have to actually change the system, I think

Fellow applicant here—I want to push back on this a little bit! Iowa's director is a woman of color who has arguably paved the way for tons of writers to find commercial success, many of whom wouldn't have had as much support under previous directors (Carmen M. Machado actually tweeted about this recently). I think it's easy from the outside to see this as a form of gatekeeping—and in a way it is—but I think in another way it's an opened door for writers who wouldn't have had these opportunities otherwise.

[mrvisser]

I think I'm okay with it not being an entirely democratic process. It should be competitive, and though it can be argued whether a subjective decision is right or wrong, I think the people on these committees have earned the right to make those decisions. 

[Starbuck420]

28 minutes ago, lilacbread said:

 I think it's easy from the outside to see this as a form of gatekeeping—and in a way it is—but I think in another way it's an opened door for writers who wouldn't have had these opportunities otherwise.

Sure, of course this is true, and I do not mean to discount this at all. My comments were less specifically a critique of her or of Iowa than they were of the system more generally. Only mentioned Samantha because she was mentioned in the initial quote

My point is just that this process of credentialization actually excludes a whole new group of people, even as it creates a means of entry for members of previously excluded groups. This group is, basically, people without bachelors degrees, people with bachelors degrees from other countries (many US universities do not accept 3 year Indian degrees for example), or folks who are unable to attend graduate school in the US for any other reason. That's all. What you say is absolutely true and I do not question it. The process of credentialization has benefited many people and brought many folks (who otherwise would've been excluded, again) into the fold. I just think that we can widen the umbrella a bit more

Edited January 25, 2021 by Starbuck420
initial post was a bit unclear

[JPReinhold]

46 minutes ago, mrvisser said:

I think I'm okay with it not being an entirely democratic process. It should be competitive, and though it can be argued whether a subjective decision is right or wrong, I think the people on these committees have earned the right to make those decisions. 

Not to mention, they’re the ones who will have to work with you for the next 2-3 years. I would not like it if they hired people for me to oversee for three years without my approval

I’m not sure what the benefit of applying to study under certain mentors would be if unrelated people selected the candidates. If the people mentoring you don’t value your work or see it’s potential, I’m not see you’ll get much out of those years. 

[teasel]

Chiming in here--for better or worse, successfully completing a BA degree is one of the quickest ways the committee can tentatively measure one's potential success in graduate school.  As someone who went back to undergrad later, I've seen firsthand how difficult it is to get by without a BA in the US if you want to be competitive in the workforce, specifically academia and humanities-related endeavors. I'm not saying it's fair, but it's already a pretty monumental task sorting through the 1000+ applications they receive already.  They gotta thin it out somehow. 

That being said, I had to drop out of my undergrad at 19 because I couldn't afford it! I really empathize with those who want a post-secondary education but don't want to be in crippling debt for the rest of their lives.  I ended up going to community college to finish my AA and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. Worked 40+ hrs a week while doing it, too. My grades then qualified me for a scholarship that allowed me to attend a great 4 year university after that.... and after having to get through all that BS, I feel like that should mean something?  So, I really hear what you're saying @starbuck420 and I wish I had some better solution to offer, but the due process exists for a reason.  I guess that in a perfect world, studio programs wouldn't require a BA. Most of the programs I applied to are pretty academic, and I wonder if someone who hasn't completed any post-secondary education  can compete in class alongside Eng. Lit PhD candidates. Heck, I don't even know if I'm ready for that.  
 

Anyway, everyone should have access to education. Everyone should have access to healthcare. I'm not arguing the obvious, just pointing out that there are inevitable hurdles and steps to the process for a reason. I wish there were more opportunities for writers. The MFA isn't the only route a writer can take, but it sure feels like it sometimes. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by teasel

[mrvisser]

16 minutes ago, teasel said:

Anyway, everyone should have access to education. Everyone should have access to healthcare. I'm not arguing the obvious, just pointing out that there are inevitable hurdles and steps to the process for a reason. I wish there were more opportunities for writers. The MFA isn't the only route a writer can take, but it sure feels like it sometimes. 

Yeah, I think this is one of those things where we should be addressing the root. The answer, in my opinion, shouldn't be to remove the bachelor's requirement (to me it doesn't make sense to get a master's when you don't have a bachelor's), but to increase opportunities for people to earn their bachelor's in the first place. Although I do think it's weird that degrees from other countries aren't accepted; that should probably be amended. I don't know too much about India's academic institutions, but my impression was that they are strong.

[teasel]

2 minutes ago, mrvisser said:

Yeah, I think this is one of those things where we should be addressing the root. The answer, in my opinion, shouldn't be to remove the bachelor's requirement (to me it doesn't make sense to get a master's when you don't have a bachelor's), but to increase opportunities for people to earn their bachelor's in the first place. Although I do think it's weird that degrees from other countries aren't accepted; that should probably be amended. I don't know too much about India's academic institutions, but my impression was that they are strong.

 

No one should have to take out 50k in federal and private loans to attend university. It's appalling. Older generations often cite inflation but the truth is that back in the 70's, at least at the university I attended, you could easily pay for your tuition by working a summer job.  Now, you're lucky if you're able to pay the interest and additional fees (university health insurance, processing bs, etc.).  

I don't know much about university systems outside of the US, but I do agree that it's unfortunate.  It seems like there are a lot of international applicants on Draft, though, so maybe this is changing? Would love to hear about this from the perspective of an international applicant, if they're will to share. 

[Graceful Entropy]

If I am understanding @Starbuck420 right, I believe they are saying that using a single gatekeeper (even one who is a woman of color) is troubling.

Everyone has biases, and not taking methodologically sound steps (such as blind readings w/ a panel of opinions) leads those biases to leak in more easily. Even journals use a variety of slush readers, though I imagine that's more so what those first two readers fulfill.

Saying the system for filtration can improve doesn't mean that it becomes any less elite or competitive.

[huckldog]

Someone on Draft said on the “Selectivity Data” document that they were told there were nearly 100 applicants for Indiana Urbana-Champaign - does anyone know what their applicant number has been in the past? I didn’t personally apply there, but  trying to speculate whether there were more or less applicants this year overall

[Ydrl]

12 minutes ago, huckldog said:

Someone on Draft said on the “Selectivity Data” document that they were told there were nearly 100 applicants for Indiana Urbana-Champaign - does anyone know what their applicant number has been in the past? I didn’t personally apply there, but  trying to speculate whether there were more or less applicants this year overall

If that’s correct, that’s less than usual. It does support my theory that there are way less applicants than usual, and that’s why we’re hearing back so early.

[teasel]

19 minutes ago, Graceful Entropy said:

If I am understanding @Starbuck420 right, I believe they are saying that using a single gatekeeper (even one who is a woman of color) is troubling.

Everyone has biases, and not taking methodologically sound steps (such as blind readings w/ a panel of opinions) leads those biases to leak in more easily. Even journals use a variety of slush readers, though I imagine that's more so what those first two readers fulfill.

Saying the system for filtration can improve doesn't mean that it becomes any less elite or competitive.

I hear what you're saying, and there's a lot to unpack on this thread. I do wonder who these "blind readers" would be--the faculty of IWW are in the best place to make these calls, seeing as they are a part of the culture and will be the ones personally investing time & attention to those admitted.  Perhaps the best way to avoid biases is to further diversify the faculty/adcoms in every sense of the word?  A lot of schools are trying to diversify the student body, but on the systemic level I wonder if it has to start with faculty first and foremost. Obviously I am not qualified to even touch this problem, but it's something that seems pretty relevant with regards to the literary community as a whole rn.  And in the end, it's going to be subjective no matter what, right? I don't know if there's any way getting around that. It all comes down to the writing sample and the whims and/or tastes of the adcoms. 

Edit to add that 60/1000 applications still seems kinda generous? I mean, how many workshops have ya'll been in where *everyone's* story/poem is utterly captivating. I know I sound harsh, I just mean that not everyone who applies to a place like IWW is going to turn in something polished. Even great writers often have to apply 2 or 3 rounds. And this year, there's gotta be a number of people who applied on a whim after striking out in the job market and watching that one episode of Girls...  maybe it's easier culling the initial herd than we'd like to believe. I say this as someone who is 100% terrified btw. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by teasel

[tippybug]

Hi guys! I've been lurking for a few days but I thought I might as well make an account and introduce myself I am about to graduate with a bachelor's in computer science, and I'm pretty young, so I know my chances might be slim BUT I'm hopeful. One of my personal mentors and recommenders is a graduate from the program I am dreaming of attending, so that makes me think I have a bit of a shot. I applied to a bunch of different fiction programs, all top tier, and haven't heard back from anywhere yet. I know, of course, that there's a big ole chance I'll get all rejections. Fingers crossed, though. And my fingers are crossed for everyone else! I know writing is something we all hold dear. 

I am not as passionate about computer science as I am writing, but I attended a super intense STEM-focused early college program that set me up to do well in CS, and I knew it'd be a good route to go down if creative writing doesn't work out for me. But man oh man, I really hope it does (as I'm sure is the case for all of you!!). I am also applying to some PhD programs in computer science as my backup plan, since I definitely don't think I'm ready to get a full-time job or anything like that...

I'm not sure if this was discussed earlier in the forum, but what type of writing do you guys like the most? And who are your favorite authors? I love magical realism and Japanese literature. My favorite authors are Haruki Murakami, Donna Tartt, David Mitchell, and Ruth Ozeki. I was also a huge fan of Tin House magazine before they stopped printing.

Best of luck to everyone!

Edited January 25, 2021 by tippybug

[lilacbread]

21 minutes ago, teasel said:

I hear what you're saying, and there's a lot to unpack on this thread. I do wonder who these "blind readers" would be--the faculty of IWW are in the best place to make these calls, seeing as they are a part of the culture and will be the ones personally investing time & attention to those admitted.  Perhaps the best way to avoid biases is to further diversify the faculty/adcoms in every sense of the word?  A lot of schools are trying to diversify the student body, but on the systemic level I wonder if it has to start with faculty first and foremost. Obviously I am not qualified to even touch this problem, but it's something that seems pretty relevant with regards to the literary community as a whole rn.  And in the end, it's going to be subjective no matter what, right? I don't know if there's any way getting around that. It all comes down to the writing sample and the whims and/or tastes of the adcoms. 

Edit to add that 60/1000 applications still seems kinda generous? I mean, how many workshops have ya'll been in where *everyone's* story/poem is utterly captivating. I know I sound harsh, I just mean that not everyone who applies to a place like IWW is going to turn in something polished. Even great writers often have to apply 2 or 3 rounds. And this year, there's gotta be a number of people who applied on a whim after striking out in the job market and watching that one episode of Girls...  maybe it's easier culling the initial herd than we'd like to believe. I say this as someone who is 100% terrified btw. 

I agree! I think this process is always subjective, in that art is subjectively assessed.

Fwiw, I've heard at Helen Zell that the first pass is done by current students, and an Iowa alum told me they read samples for admissions once (I'm not clear on if they were a current student or an alum by the time they did that, though).

[qwer2]

6 hours ago, Starbuck420 said:

It was a little disheartening to me, honestly, to see that one person has so much power in the process. 

One person basically deciding who gets to attend, or actually ruling out 940 people, is actually pretty normal in modern society. If you look at other programs like an MBA, one person eliminates more than that many people.

Almost no one wants to get an MFA. The same 1000 people apply to all the top programs. You cannot make money off of writing. All of these programs have like 4 fiction teachers and only one to four people deciding who gets in. Where you go for an MFA doesn’t matter at much as you perceive. It is just the next step before you, so it seems like this is all there is. After you get an MFA, you will discover that most graduates from Iowa MFA end up high school English teachers and are never published.

If you don’t have an undergrad degree, most likely you won’t learn much at an MFA school. Shakespeare didn’t go to university, and maybe you don’t need to either, but most likely your best road is to go to an undergrad school before an MFA.

I used to think it was degrading to go to community college when you’re old, but I now believe that the classes at community college aren’t all that different from the classes at schools hard to get into. They try to build the syllabus to cover a range of levels. They give you as much to read as you want.

[eternalwhitenights]

22 hours ago, mrvisser said:

Oh man, I haven't even gotten anything from ThinkND...hope that isn't a bad sign.

In all seriousness, nothing yet on my end. Seems like Illinois and Ohio State are the only two big schools who have given out decisions so far.

Haha, I wouldn't worry too much about not getting a "ThinkND" email. It's just their department newsletter. ? I will say, though, it has been kind of cool to observe what some of the flow of campus offerings are, and what ideological trends are being explored through academic series, workshops, etc. It's just confirmed for me more than ever that this is the next right step for me, and that there is so much good that can come from attending here, especially in the context of my novel.

I hope you hear back from something soon! When I stalked the results page a few weeks ago, it looked like a lot of their results came in mid-late February, so I'm thinking that's a safe time to expect at least some word back. But hopefully sooner rather than later...or, in other words, AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

 

[teasel]

7 minutes ago, qwer2 said:

I used to think it was degrading to go to community college when you’re old, but I now believe that the classes at community college aren’t all that different from the classes at schools hard to get into. They try to build the syllabus to cover a range of levels. They give you as much to read as you want.

I agree--it's unfortunate that there's a certain stigma around community college. Especially considering that after you transfer to a four year institution, it really doesn't make much of a difference (and you save soooo much $$). The teachers I had in my cc classes were wonderful and passionate about their students. AND, my classroom discussions were 1000% more interesting than the group of 18 year old upper/middle class students at my 4 year.

Not to mention that MFA programs apparently couldn't care less about where you went to undergrad as long as they see something worthwhile in your writing!  

[tippybug]

5 minutes ago, eternalwhitenights said:

But hopefully sooner rather than later...or, in other words, AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

 

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH is exactly what I'm feeling too

[teasel]

19 minutes ago, tippybug said:

Hi guys! I've been lurking for a few days but I thought I might as well make an account and introduce myself I am about to graduate with a bachelor's in computer science, and I'm pretty young, so I know my chances might be slim BUT I'm hopeful. One of my personal mentors and recommenders is a graduate from the program I am dreaming of attending, so that makes me think I have a bit of a shot. I applied to a bunch of different fiction programs, all top tier, and haven't heard back from anywhere yet. I know, of course, that there's a big ole chance I'll get all rejections. Fingers crossed, though. And my fingers are crossed for everyone else! I know writing is something we all hold dear. 

I am not as passionate about computer science as I am writing, but I attended a super intense STEM-focused early college program that set me up to do well in CS, and I knew it'd be a good route to go down if creative writing doesn't work out for me. But man oh man, I really hope it does (as I'm sure is the case for all of you!!). I am also applying to some PhD programs in computer science as my backup plan, since I definitely don't think I'm ready to get a full-time job or anything like that...

I'm not sure if this was discussed earlier in the forum, but what type of writing do you guys like the most? And who are your favorite authors? I love magical realism and Japanese literature. My favorite authors are Haruki Murakami, Donna Tartt, David Mitchell, and Ruth Ozeki. I was also a huge fan of Tin House magazine before they stopped printing.

Best of luck to everyone!

 Welcome! I think coming from a background that isn't strictly humanities probably gives you a really unique perspective. Tbh, I kind of wish that I had gone in the direction of STEM for my undergrad for practicality's sake. 

Absolutely love Murakami and Tartt! I read The Secret History this summer, but have yet to read her other works.  I read 1Q84 a few years ago, but since then have mostly only read his short stories. If you liked those writers, you might enjoy The Vegetarian by Han Kang. These days I'm mostly reading poetry tbh, but I'm hoping to pick up a new novel soon. Will check o ut Ozeki and Mitchell since it sounds like we have similar taste!