2021 Applicants Forum

[goodcynara]

18 minutes ago, dreamx said:

This is super helpful info - thank you for sharing!

My pleasure. Respect to U-W Madison for their forthrightness and clarity!

[Botanica]

2 hours ago, chaes said:

 

Didn't know about the controversy surrounding Poetry Foundation until I saw the posts in this thread. Interesting to follow, as it seems it's become a movement to provide a platform to share the voices of incarcerated individuals. I'm reading and learning more about it, so I don't have a stance on it right now, but I'm torn between a few thoughts and questions: 1) It seems like the purpose for providing a platform for the thoughts and voices of incarcerated persons is for the public to recognize them as individuals with a selfhood that transcends their crime 2) How do you draw the line, if at all, to determine which incarcerated individuals to publish? I mention the if at all part because if the primary purpose is to assert that incarcerated people are defined by more than their crimes, is it best to follow through on that purpose no matter what crime they're imprisoned for? If lines are drawn, is it a bit like playing god if you pick and choose?  Or maybe each journal or organization takes an individual stance and draws their own line depending on their values?

Curious to hear other people's thoughts. 

Currently mulling over this article: Poetry magazine published a child porn convict in its prison issue, but did it deserve the backlash? (slate.com) 

I really appreciate your thoughts here! I think that at the end of the Slate article, Reginald Dwayne Betts said it best, "The problem here, he said, is that the blind submission perpetuates the same inequities that are always present in Poetry’s selection process. “Poetry already privileges access and opportunity. Blind submission? It’s gonna privilege folks that have more access to that skill development, whether it’s an MFA or a prison program. The inclusion of this cat is more evidence that the process didn’t work.”

The issue for me isn't highlighting the voices of incarcerated people, but more so the lack of accountability and insight within PoFo. It just sucks that out of all of the incarcerated people they could have chosen to highlight, they chose a sick white man with a PhD who already has had privileges beyond what others in the system could have hoped for. I'm definitely not qualified to weigh in on this in a decisive way, and I don't think that this situation is black and white. At the end of the day, I believe that PoFo could have, and should have, done better.

[mrvisser]

1 hour ago, sylviaplate said:

Any recommendations on poems dealing with grief? I just experienced a really difficult, unexpected loss of a family member and am wondering what people have turned to for comfort or what ya’ll think best articulates the feeling. Short stories or essays also welcome, if you feel so inclined.

I can only speak to a longer piece, which is a Joan Didion memoir, The Year of Magical Thinking. It really changed my perception of what mourning looks like. It's very nuanced and was written after her husband unexpectedly passed. 

So sorry to hear about your loss.

[Pinskadan]

1 hour ago, sylviaplate said:

Any recommendations on poems dealing with grief? I just experienced a really difficult, unexpected loss of a family member and am wondering what people have turned to for comfort or what ya’ll think best articulates the feeling. Short stories or essays also welcome, if you feel so inclined.

I'm so sorry for your loss, and hope you can find comfort wherever possible. Seconding @goodcynara's recommendation of Forrest Gander's Be With; its first poem absolutely takes my breath away. I'd also recommend Diana Khoi Nguyen's Ghost Of (which deals with the sudden suicide of her little brother) and Victoria Chang's OBIT (which uses the obituary format as a way to cope with her mother's death.) 

[goodcynara]

7 minutes ago, Pinskadan said:

I'm so sorry for your loss, and hope you can find comfort wherever possible. Seconding @goodcynara's recommendation of Forrest Gander's Be With; its first poem absolutely takes my breath away. I'd also recommend Diana Khoi Nguyen's Ghost Of (which deals with the sudden suicide of her little brother) and Victoria Chang's OBIT (which uses the obituary format as a way to cope with her mother's death.) 

I second "Obit." Thank you for hipping me to "Ghost Of" -- I just ordered it.

[gustavman]

3 hours ago, chaes said:

1) It seems like the purpose for providing a platform for the thoughts and voices of incarcerated persons is for the public to recognize them as individuals with a selfhood that transcends their crime 2) How do you draw the line, if at all, to determine which incarcerated individuals to publish? I mention the if at all part because if the primary purpose is to assert that incarcerated people are defined by more than their crimes, is it best to follow through on that purpose no matter what crime they're imprisoned for? If lines are drawn, is it a bit like playing god if you pick and choose?  Or maybe each journal or organization takes an individual stance and draws their own line depending on their values?

Curious to hear other people's thoughts. 

Since you're curious, I'll give my two minute analysis. 

If you are going to have equal justice for all, then you have to have a list of crimes that make you unpublishable. Immigration has a ridiculously complicated system for which crimes will get you deported. If murder is the only crime with capital punishment, it has to be assumed to be the worst crime. So if you are banning for child porn crimes, you have to ban for murder. Then you’ll have to look at crime after crime and pick an arbitrary line. All sex crimes, domestic violence, all assaults, drunk driving insider trading. I can see someone saying Bernie Madoff should be unpublishable. There is no great system, other than that people shouldn't do crime, and then everyone will be happy. One answer is to say no prison issue altogether. There is some governor I can’t remember who wants prisoners to be the last ones to get COVID vaccines even if they are most risk. It’s odd because liberals are often pro prisoner rights, while liberals flip with particular crimes like child porn.

 

 

 

[JPReinhold]

1 minute ago, gustavman said:

Since you're curious, I'll give my two minute analysis. 

If you are going to have equal justice for all, then you have to have a list of crimes that make you unpublishable. Immigration has a ridiculously complicated system for which crimes will get you deported. If murder is the only crime with capital punishment, it has to be assumed to be the worst crime. So if you are banning for child porn crimes, you have to ban for murder. Then you’ll have to look at crime after crime and pick an arbitrary line. All sex crimes, domestic violence, all assaults, drunk driving insider trading. I can see someone saying Bernie Madoff should be unpublishable. There is no great system, other than that people shouldn't do crime, and then everyone will be happy. One answer is to say no prison issue altogether. There is some governor I can’t remember who wants prisoners to be the last ones to get COVID vaccines even if they are most risk. It’s odd because liberals are often pro prisoner rights, while liberals flip with particular crimes like child porn.

 

 

 

I don’t know if this makes any difference to your “devil’s advocate” approach, but this person also used their position as a poet to commit these crimes. I don’t want to elaborate as you have google, but giving a platform back to someone who once used it to prey upon children is wrong under every moral code, I would have to think. 

[gustavman]

8 minutes ago, JPReinhold said:

I don’t know if this makes any difference to your “devil’s advocate” approach, but this person also used their position as a poet to commit these crimes. I don’t want to elaborate as you have google, but giving a platform back to someone who once used it to prey upon children is wrong under every moral code, I would have to think. 

I know nothing of the facts. 

But when the issue comes should we take someone’s dental license away, we do consider whether they were convicted of groping a patient in the chair or groping someone on a date, whether they committed dental insurance fraud or unrelated tax fraud. The theory is, if he committed a dental crime, he might do another dental crime. The theory is not any crime related to dentistry is worse than one unrelated to dentistry.

There is no real principle behind the theory to bar someone who committed a dentistry crime, while letting stay someone who committed a non-dentistry crime that is morally worse.

So you say he committed basically a poetry crime. A crime is not worse because it relates to poetry. Poetry is not a sacrosanct religion. A temple was not besmirched. It would be equally evil if his crime involved no poetry.

And barring him from poetry doesn’t protect the public any, unless you believe he can use poetry for more child porn.

[mrvisser]

17 minutes ago, gustavman said:

Since you're curious, I'll give my two minute analysis. 

Damn, bro, you were quick in getting that new account. I like the username.

[gustavman]

Just now, mrvisser said:

Damn, bro, you were quick in getting that new account. I like the username.

Yeah, things got so quiet here for a few hours. And then the off topic posts on Victorian houses seemed like ignoring the elephant in the room. I couldn't help feel partially responsible.

Ydrl coined the name. I can take no credit. 

[tippybug]

On 2/4/2021 at 3:14 PM, WolfMan said:

Lmao have you been on the internet before? In my experience there is no shortage of energy-leeching trolls.

No this is my first time actually ^______^ ❤️

[tippybug]

This is a long rant but I really want to say this to someone: I feel like I am at such a crossroads in life right now. What I want more than anything is to get into a good MFA program and be a writer, but since I got such a good offer from a top program in CS, I feel like I can't turn that down. I've put so much time into programming and have met so many peers/mentors who seem to expect so much from me and who I want to make proud. Like, my research mentor is so amazing, and the school I got into is where she got her PhD, and oh my gosh I just want to make her proud! But I just can't believe such a good program saw something they liked in my application even though I feel like I haven't put my heart into programming at all

It honestly makes me feel so guilty because CS has always been plan b in my mind, and I haven't shown it any passion, even though it is something i care about. I really care about being a good computer scientist because I think that it can make the world a better place, but I just feel so resentful of my place in CS because it is what I'm doing instead of writing. I always feel so distracted and disengaged with CS because I want to be an author. But I feel like I'm about to waste an amazing opportunity if I turn this offer down, and I don't know what to do.

And this is all super assumptive anyway, there is still a really good chance I won't get into any good MFA programs in which case I will totally take the offer. I just don't know what to make of things! I have so much impostor's syndrome right now. I feel totally unprepared to be a graduate student in CS, ESPECIALLY A TA, and I feel guilty both taking the offer and NOT taking the offer. ARGH!!! Sorry if this sounds braggy about getting into a program. I know I am really lucky to have gotten this offer, and I really don't want to take it for granted.

Anyone have any words of wisdom? Sorry for this sloppy vent post... I'm a little fried rn, hehe.

Edited February 5, 2021 by tippybug

[aheather]

34 minutes ago, gustavman said:

I know nothing of the facts. 

it's a good idea to not throw out your opinion until you've got at least those straight, just as a matter of general policy.

this is a nuanced, painful situation. to talk about it with due care requires understanding where people's hurt is coming from.

[Ydrl]

17 minutes ago, tippybug said:

It honestly makes me feel so guilty because CS has always been plan b in my mind, and I haven't shown it any passion, even though it is something i care about. I really care about being a good computer scientist because I think that it can make the world a better place, but I just feel so resentful of my place in CS because it is what I'm doing instead of writing. I always feel so distracted and disengaged with CS because I want to be an author. But I feel like I'm about to waste an amazing opportunity if I turn this offer down, and I don't know what to do.

I'm a little fried rn, hehe.

I was working to become a genetic engineer for a good chunk of my college career. Even though I went a different path, genetics (and science in general), enchants me to this day. The style of research that I do is quite similar to how I researched when I was a science student. I know it wasn’t right for me though, because of how exhausted and upset I was. Despite having awesome friends, a reasonable college schedule, and decent grades, something was off. I was so convinced I had to be a science student (I got a 32 on the science ACT) that I just forgot what makes me the happiest.

I changed my major 10 times until I reached English and suddenly when I started that program it clicked. This is what I wanted so badly, a place where I could write and explore my creativity where it would be rewarded. The rigid system of science reminds me of a cage. I’m definitely not gonna keep my writing from reaching it’s true potential because of my passing scientific interests. Like I did for years. And I can’t do it anymore.

I’m not sure if that helps, if not, sorry for the ramble.

[orangeslice]

5 minutes ago, Ydrl said:

I was working to become a genetic engineer for a good chunk of my college career. Even though I went a different path, genetics (and science in general), enchants me to this day. The style of research that I do is quite similar to how I researched when I was a science student. I know it wasn’t right for me though, because of how exhausted and upset I was. Despite having awesome friends, a reasonable college schedule, and decent grades, something was off. I was so convinced I had to be a science student (I got a 32 on the science ACT) that I just forgot what makes me the happiest.

I changed my major 10 times until I reached English and suddenly when I started that program it clicked. This is what I wanted so badly, a place where I could write and explore my creativity where it would be rewarded. The rigid system of science reminds me of a cage. I’m definitely not gonna keep my writing from reaching it’s true potential because of my passing scientific interests. Like I did for years. And I can’t do it anymore.

I’m not sure if that helps, if not, sorry for the ramble.

I had a similar experience. I was planning on medical school until a month before I finished my undergrad. I took A LOT of science classes and had really convinced myself that I wasn't going to be financially successful if I didn't become a doctor. Maybe that's true, and some days I still have doubts. But I think it's also true that you regret more the things you don't do than the things you do, and in @tippybug's case this could be a good time to think how he/she will feel a few decades from now if they don't give their writing a fair chance at success.

That's my thought process, at least, and most of the time I'm comforted knowing that medical school isn't going anywhere even if I wait for another five years to pack up and go. In the meantime I'm throwing myself into my writing with full force, because if there's even a small chance I could be the 'one in a million' who lives off of their writing, I want that life most. Sorry about the length, but you're not alone!

[JPReinhold]

1 hour ago, orangeslice said:

I had a similar experience. I was planning on medical school until a month before I finished my undergrad. I took A LOT of science classes and had really convinced myself that I wasn't going to be financially successful if I didn't become a doctor. Maybe that's true, and some days I still have doubts. But I think it's also true that you regret more the things you don't do than the things you do, and in @tippybug's case this could be a good time to think how he/she will feel a few decades from now if they don't give their writing a fair chance at success.

That's my thought process, at least, and most of the time I'm comforted knowing that medical school isn't going anywhere even if I wait for another five years to pack up and go. In the meantime I'm throwing myself into my writing with full force, because if there's even a small chance I could be the 'one in a million' who lives off of their writing, I want that life most. Sorry about the length, but you're not alone!

I had the same experience with law school. That being said, life is long, and here I am at 34. Writing will not leave you if you take time to do something else. Writers will always write, and if it's what you love, you'll continue to improve until you're ready to go do an MFA. I feel very prepared to go do this MFA (with a master's in another field and a law school drop out) - a lot more so than I would have been 15 years ago. I'm financially also in a position where I won't be stressed about the small stipend. I'll be able to eat fruits and vegetables while I write

[quesofresco]

Hey all! I don't have Facebook so can't access Draft, curious if there are additional acceptances being reported there that haven't been posted on the gradcafe acceptance board? I applied to PhDs including FSU, just here casually waiting for my Mark Winegardner text message lol...

[mrvisser]

2 hours ago, quesofresco said:

Hey all! I don't have Facebook so can't access Draft, curious if there are additional acceptances being reported there that haven't been posted on the gradcafe acceptance board? I applied to PhDs including FSU, just here casually waiting for my Mark Winegardner text message lol...

I haven't noticed anything on Draft that hasn't also been posted here.

[Starbuck420]

3 hours ago, JPReinhold said:

with a master's in another field

lol me too

I seriously do wonder how many other MFA seekers are double dipping from the great, lukewarm fondue pot of grad school

Edited February 6, 2021 by Starbuck420
edit: typo

[purgatoryparadise]

11 hours ago, gustavman said:

I know nothing of the facts. 

But when the issue comes should we take someone’s dental license away, we do consider whether they were convicted of groping a patient in the chair or groping someone on a date, whether they committed dental insurance fraud or unrelated tax fraud. The theory is, if he committed a dental crime, he might do another dental crime. The theory is not any crime related to dentistry is worse than one unrelated to dentistry.

There is no real principle behind the theory to bar someone who committed a dentistry crime, while letting stay someone who committed a non-dentistry crime that is morally worse.

So you say he committed basically a poetry crime. A crime is not worse because it relates to poetry. Poetry is not a sacrosanct religion. A temple was not besmirched. It would be equally evil if his crime involved no poetry.

And barring him from poetry doesn’t protect the public any, unless you believe he can use poetry for more child porn.

This analogy is neither relevant nor necessary. The main thrust of the matter is whether we wish to allow current sex offenders to be celebrated while they are living and benefitting financially/reputationally from that celebration--Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, Kevin Spacey, etc. are relevant examples. None of them literally used a film to sexually assault someone, but there is no doubt that the power and renown they accrued due to their artistic success played a large part in a huge power disparity where the underage victim was coerced and/or silenced. No one is saying this sex offender can't write or to pass some legislation that forbids him from submitting to magazines, but we can sure as hell make it hard for him. Let him write all day and make delightful anthologies if it makes him feel better, and maybe one day some edgy publisher will put his work out. Maybe some people similar to you, who don't find child pornography a dealbreaker, will go ahead and buy his book and put some money in his pocket. Then he'll lean back in his steel chair and pleasantly remark, "Well, at least child porn didn't take away this from me" and slap his leather-bound notebook with a smile.

Edited February 6, 2021 by truffleshuffle

[jujubee]

8 hours ago, quesofresco said:

Hey all! I don't have Facebook so can't access Draft, curious if there are additional acceptances being reported there that haven't been posted on the gradcafe acceptance board? I applied to PhDs including FSU, just here casually waiting for my Mark Winegardner text message lol...

Was refreshing my email like crazy yesterday, hoping for a "lovely Barbara Hamby" message but alas, it was not meant to be. Think it's safe to say we weren't chosen and that's okay! If some posts in the results page are to be believed, they had 400 applications for CW. It's a lottery at this point.

[mrvisser]

Ho boy, another big acceptance via Draft: Minnesota for poetry. 

I believe we have a few Minnesota applicants here. Anybody hear anything? Lot of schools giving decisions this week; it's all happening.

[Ydrl]

7 minutes ago, mrvisser said:

Ho boy, another big acceptance via Draft: Minnesota for poetry. 

I believe we have a few Minnesota applicants here. Anybody hear anything? Lot of schools giving decisions this week; it's all happening.

I’m shitting myself right now. Minnesota is my top choice, then Michener, then Maryland. I’m scared.

[mrvisser]

4 minutes ago, Ydrl said:

I’m shitting myself right now. Minnesota is my top choice, then Michener, then Maryland. I’m scared.

I remembered that you particularly had Minnesota in mind. I've only seen the one acceptance so far, and it's from someone who has gotten a lot of acceptances so far. Seems like a weird year to apply for Minnesota, given how they were navigating COVID. They're one of my top Plan B choices. 

Hang in there! It ain't over yet. I'm fortunate that I haven't seen any acceptances to any of my applied-to schools yet, but maybe it's just delaying the hurt that's sure to come.

[Pinskadan]

Minnesota is one of my absolute favorite programs so when I just woke up from my nap and saw that there had been a poetry acceptance AN HOUR AGO I started freaking out. Especially given how small the cohort is this year (I think they're only taking six writers total??) I'm trying not to feel doomed that I haven't had a call from them yet.