MFA 2021 Freak Out Forum

[jack343234]

I'm thinking of Pratt for painting.  Does anyone know how good the program is or have any friends who went?  Its hard to find a lot of information about it outside the school website.

[SocialKonstruct]

4 minutes ago, jack343234 said:

I'm thinking of Pratt for painting.  Does anyone know how good the program is or have any friends who went?  Its hard to find a lot of information about it outside the school website.

Actually one of our old classmates is right there for Pratt paintings. And she loves it! It's a fairly laid back program with lots of wonderful people who are supportive. And yes, a few of them do make it in the NYC art world too. I also would love more information about the classes there as well as about the environs which I could not find in the website.

https://www.amyungrichtart.com/

Edited March 7, 2021 by SocialKonstruct

[jack343234]

 

2 minutes ago, SocialKonstruct said:

Actually one of our old classmate is right there for Pratt paintings. And she loves it! It's a fairly laid back program with lots of wonderful people who are supportive. And yes, a few of them do make it in the NYC art world too.

https://www.amyungrichtart.com/

Thanks for the response, I'm glad your friend is liking it!  When you say laid back what do you mean? I'm looking for an intense critiquing environment and am wondering if its something they provide?

[SocialKonstruct]

3 minutes ago, jack343234 said:

 

Thanks for the response, I'm glad your friend is liking it!  When you say laid back what do you mean? I'm looking for an intense critiquing environment and am wondering if its something they provide?

If you want intense critiquing environment, that I wouldn't know. I just know that the folks hang out a ton outside of classes and do stuff together. But if you are looking for the legendary pit crit brutality of the Yale program, Pratt is the opposite from what I gather through the grapevine.

[Bluebluepie]

Does anyone know how Columbia's Visual Arts MFA group crit compares to Yale's Painting/Printmaking MFA pit crit...in terms of intensity? 

[SocialKonstruct]

9 minutes ago, Bluebluepie said:

Does anyone know how Columbia's Visual Arts MFA group crit compares to Yale's Painting/Printmaking MFA pit crit...in terms of intensity? 

I wouldn't be able to do a comparison but I can try to ask my Columbia MFA friends (who graduated from there) and that our gallery represents about Columbia's paintings... Also I know is that articles have alluded to the Pit Crit being a pretty intellectual and emotionally fraught type of situation. (https://i-d.vice.com/en_us/article/bj3jvz/this-is-what-its-like-to-get-a-yale-school-of-art-mfa-degree and https://artillerymag.com/24755/

"At the Yale School of Painting and Printmaking there is a pit. They called it a pit. There were discussions in the pit and they were twice a year, about you, and mandatory.

Some people cried in the pit. They wept because the artist-professors said they held low opinions of the art they had made and—not infrequently, and not only by implication, of them as people—of their intelligence, bravery, craft and work ethic. Since the entire school was watching, along with dozens of students from sculpture and photo, this was very public weeping.

Most did not weep. One student drank heavily the whole time, one told me to play “Get Off Of My Cloud” if it got bad, one painted the most famous teacher being raped by animals and showed it to him, one never had a good crit and is magnificently well off.
It was considered important to have allies when you went into the pit. You would invite your friends—but they weren’t allowed to talk. The professors would talk, and you would talk and you were always outnumbered.

It is no accident that of the three art schools at Yale it was the School of Painting—the most primitive—that enacted the end-of-term critique in its most theatrical, least merciful, and purest form. There are no skills regularly taught in modern art schools—the Pit Crit and its cousins in schools all over the world are the primary ritual of the modern academy: place the artist in the center of a concentric circle whose outermost ring is whatever they felt like making and whose middle ring is their elders, and tell them that they suck."

--Zak Smith

[NCS14512]

14 hours ago, katfude said:

Can we just let everyone on this forum shoot their shot despite what school they are going to. Everyone here has a different story with a different background and different schools fit different people for a million reasons. We get it that you are a curator at a gallery that you run who only looks at where people go to school-- but you are not indicative of the entire art world and we are all just trying to get where we are going. Just please, let everyone have a chance at finding what ever level of success they are happy with no matter what MFA program they do or do not end up in. Not everyone here is trying to become a billionaire business person disguised as an artist. Can we just calm the ego talk down a few notches and let it all go. 

I would also just like to chime in-- I worked for a non profit artist residency and was on the jury and when we reviewed applicants WE LOOKED AT THEIR WORK FIRST. Their education hardly ever came into play- sure we had artists that went to UCLA, Yale and wherever but we also had phenomenal artists from "lower tier" universities and they were in no way hindered by their education. It boils my blood to see someone speak for the artworld, to look at profiles and deem them worthy of acceptance, or to use this platform as a personal blog to advance their own credibility and career. Be humble, be aware, be open to the idea that the art world is not black and white. For those of you feeling like your education will dictate the rest of your art career- know that there are so many institutions and people out there that will look at your work first.

[Bluebluepie]

7 minutes ago, SocialKonstruct said:

I wouldn't be able to do a comparison but I can try to ask my Columbia MFA friends (who graduated from there) and that our gallery represents about Columbia's paintings... Also I know is that articles have alluded to the Pit Crit being a pretty intellectual and emotionally fraught type of situation. (https://i-d.vice.com/en_us/article/bj3jvz/this-is-what-its-like-to-get-a-yale-school-of-art-mfa-degree and https://artillerymag.com/24755/

"At the Yale School of Painting and Printmaking there is a pit. They called it a pit. There were discussions in the pit and they were twice a year, about you, and mandatory.

Some people cried in the pit. They wept because the artist-professors said they held low opinions of the art they had made and—not infrequently, and not only by implication, of them as people—of their intelligence, bravery, craft and work ethic. Since the entire school was watching, along with dozens of students from sculpture and photo, this was very public weeping.

Most did not weep. One student drank heavily the whole time, one told me to play “Get Off Of My Cloud” if it got bad, one painted the most famous teacher being raped by animals and showed it to him, one never had a good crit and is magnificently well off.
It was considered important to have allies when you went into the pit. You would invite your friends—but they weren’t allowed to talk. The professors would talk, and you would talk and you were always outnumbered.

It is no accident that of the three art schools at Yale it was the School of Painting—the most primitive—that enacted the end-of-term critique in its most theatrical, least merciful, and purest form. There are no skills regularly taught in modern art schools—the Pit Crit and its cousins in schools all over the world are the primary ritual of the modern academy: place the artist in the center of a concentric circle whose outermost ring is whatever they felt like making and whose middle ring is their elders, and tell them that they suck."

--Zak Smith

That would be very helpful information.

Just saw this from a 06' article: "So are there really tears? "It does happen on occasion," said Gareth James, chairman of the visual arts program at Columbia University in New York, "but we try to make sure we are not just handing down judgments. These conversations are really about trying to get inside the internal logic of a work." -Jori Finkel (Tales From the Crit: For Art Students, May Is the Cruelest Month) 

Thank you for the links. I will definitely be reading through them! 

[1234567890_]

11 hours ago, TokenToken said:

Yes. My interview for Yale was very awkward, and I was pretty certain I’d sabotaged my case...I had technological issues (and was really nervous and shy). A kind faculty member talked me through fixing a screen share situation for 12 of the 40 minutes, as the other six participants patiently watched. I mumbled through the rest of it, had time to talk about only 1/5 works I’d prepared, and managed to ask them a question they didn’t really understand or know the answer to...I honestly can’t even remember the question. I guess sometimes it’s not about being eloquent and verbose, maybe they just want to see how you are under pressure...and they had their ideas about my work prior to the interview.

 

if you dont mind me ask which program you applied for?

[SocialKonstruct]

Just now, Bluebluepie said:

That would be very helpful information.

Just saw this from a 06' article: "So are there really tears? "It does happen on occasion," said Gareth James, chairman of the visual arts program at Columbia University in New York, "but we try to make sure we are not just handing down judgments. These conversations are really about trying to get inside the internal logic of a work." -Jori Finkel (Tales From the Crit: For Art Students, May Is the Cruelest Month) 

Thank you for the links. I will definitely be reading through them! 

Don't quote me with this but I heard that even once or twice there was a fist fight between two artists and it didn't go very well. I gather I have learned not to be emotionally involved with my art practice at all. If folks dislike my art, I just shrug it off and move on and listen to good advice. I am not a crowd pleaser.

[theundoing]

1 minute ago, Bluebluepie said:

That would be very helpful information.

Just saw this from a 06' article: "So are there really tears? "It does happen on occasion," said Gareth James, chairman of the visual arts program at Columbia University in New York, "but we try to make sure we are not just handing down judgments. These conversations are really about trying to get inside the internal logic of a work." -Jori Finkel (Tales From the Crit: For Art Students, May Is the Cruelest Month) 

Thank you for the links. I will definitely be reading through them! 

just keep in mind that Rochelle is no longer chair of the painting and printmaking department and she was old school modernist (very very intense). I would be shocked if Meleko was running a cutthroat crit (as I have heard that he is really invested in a totally diff kind of pedagogy)

[SocialKonstruct]

2 minutes ago, theundoing said:

just keep in mind that Rochelle is no longer chair of the painting and printmaking department and she was old school modernist (very very intense). I would be shocked if Meleko was running a cutthroat crit (as I have heard that he is really invested in a totally diff kind of pedagogy)

That's awesome! I like a cooperative and healthy environment to foster art making :). Exploration and social practice are great :).

[joeyjoejoeshabbadoo]

Got accepted to PAFA!
It was nerve wracking for a moment, the email makes you log in to a portal where you can read your decision, and logging in was a harrowing few moments. but then there was animated confetti so it's cool

[Paintyface]

14 hours ago, katfude said:

Can we just let everyone on this forum shoot their shot despite what school they are going to. Everyone here has a different story with a different background and different schools fit different people for a million reasons. We get it that you are a curator at a gallery that you run who only looks at where people go to school-- but you are not indicative of the entire art world and we are all just trying to get where we are going. Just please, let everyone have a chance at finding what ever level of success they are happy with no matter what MFA program they do or do not end up in. Not everyone here is trying to become a billionaire business person disguised as an artist. Can we just calm the ego talk down a few notches and let it all go. 

Thank you! There are those of us artists who are truly driven to make art, and are not motivated by the promise of a blue-chip gallery or a 'name-brand' school...is it inconceivable to some that we may actually have different needs, motivations and aspirations? Sorry, but if I was interested in hustling I'd do a business degree or I'd become a curator or gallerist. I am a painter, I want to expand my craft and delve into critical theory and immerse myself in creative dialogue with my peers. There are many institutions that cultivate this environment, not just Yale and the top 10. The patriarchal, elitist mind-set is SO incredibly retrograde, and perpetuates everything that is wrong with the abhorrent neolibral late-capitalist aspects of the art-world that undermines the rights of the artist and detracts from the actual art! For a so-called 'marxist' someone seems very uninformed about the super-structure that they are condoning-- especially in the company of fellow artists.

Right now, blue-chip galleries are out of favor with artists anyway, the minute you sell out, your credibility is shot...there are plenty of cutting edge mid-level galleries who look at the work, not the CV of the artist...think Bill Powers of the Half Gallery or Kathy Grayson of The Hole.

I think I'll maintain my authenticity as an artist and keep the focus on the art-making, not on making money, thank you very much. If you're making art for fame, money or status then it will always, always be visible in the lack of authenticity in your work. Stay true to yourself peeps! Enough of the negative, opinionated BS.

[Bluebluepie]

5 minutes ago, SocialKonstruct said:

Don't quote me with this but I heard that even once or twice there was a fist fight between two artists and it didn't go very well. I gather I have learned not to be emotionally involved with my art practice at all. If folks dislike my art, I just shrug it off and move on and listen to good advice. I am not a crowd pleaser.

Oh wow, I would have never imagined these physical exchanges would happen... Seems like intense emotions are at play during these crits...good and bad. 

Yea, it's healthy to soak in the good advice. And forget comments that stem from negatively charged personal emotions. 

[lizavetar96]

3 hours ago, nowaytosay said:

yes you are a bit

china has a different cultural climate where the parents would usually work very hard to save up for their kids education.

they really believe through good education would change their social class (lots of stories of extremely struggling parents still work extra shifts to send their kids to after school math camps etc) it is a good investment for those art students who came to states then return and utilize their studies and experiences. anyway just saying you should maybe go to open studio/meet these asian students before quickly assuming they are just from high-economic backgrounds.

You are right, I really do not have enough stats to assume such a big thing right off the bat. I apologise. It is really not my place to speculate like this. I was/am really bitter about the financial aspects of this whole thing especially in SVA, and I went overboard while writing this message. 
i am sorry to anyone who got hurt by this message. I will definitely be more careful next time (and I will not speak anymore on the topic)

[Bluebluepie]

15 minutes ago, theundoing said:

just keep in mind that Rochelle is no longer chair of the painting and printmaking department and she was old school modernist (very very intense). I would be shocked if Meleko was running a cutthroat crit (as I have heard that he is really invested in a totally diff kind of pedagogy)

Aha, thank you for bringing this to my attention. 

[SocialKonstruct]

9 minutes ago, Bluebluepie said:

Oh wow, I would have never imagined these physical exchanges would happen... Seems like intense emotions are at play during these crits...good and bad. 

Yea, it's healthy to soak in the good advice. And forget comments that stem from negatively charged personal emotions. 

I agree. My art practice right now in my BFA photography program has shifted a lot already. When I started school two years ago I wanted to be a photojournalist but now I am interested in social practice and conceptually constructed photography and sculpture. Theaster Gates is pretty awesome and I look to his example of how to conduct an ethical and thoughtful studio practice. Already he is helping out Chicago better and faster than the local politicians there who argue over how to reconstruct Chicago cultural centers.

[SocialKonstruct]

4 minutes ago, lizavetar96 said:

You are right, I really do not have enough stats to assume such a big thing right off the bat. I apologise. It is really not my place to speculate like this. I was/am really bitter about the financial aspects of this whole thing especially in SVA, and I went overboard while writing this message. 
i am sorry to anyone who got hurt by this message. I will definitely be more careful next time (and I will not speak anymore on the topic)

The financial thing is weighing on my mind too. I am debating whether to add more school loans on top of the loans I already have :\. Plus the world can change very quickly by 2023 too.

[dramallama_07]

I had a very curious question for anybody who can answer. It seems that a lot of people here have been to big name schools such as Parsons, SVA, Pratt etc.(/any other big name school) in the form of undergrad/residencies etc. And quite a few people haven't had as good experiences as they'd hoped, especially in terms of faculty who weren't as enthusiastic or helpful or available as they should've been.

However I've been told by people after I shared these above sentiments with that the case is different for MFAs and as disgusting as that sounds, many faculties although might not be paying as much attention to the UG programs, they will surely be more attentive to the PG ones since MFAs are usually supposed to be jumpstart platforms for artists and that PG courses are for obvious reasons taken more seriously by both the students and the faculties (As opposed to say, UG courses). I don't know how much of this is true and if anyone could provide any insight to this I'd be very grateful.

I speak as an International student so I have no idea of how the MFAs are regarded in the West (as opposed to BFAs or other programs) but I do feel that PG students are usually taken more seriously by the teachers.

P.S: If anyone finds my above sentiments distasteful, I want to respectfully let everyone know that I have virtually no idea how MFAs work in the West and how the "art world", of which America plays a crucial role,  actually works. While I understand that many people want to do art for the sake of art itself and not its commercial aspect (a sentiment I really respect), I want to let everyone know the reality of International students (especially those from third world countries) like myself. Where I live, there is no art funding. Art education is REALLY frowned upon in our country and artists are usually likened to beggars and sometimes even treated as ones. From where I stand, the West seems more accomodating in terms of art. I do not want to be a millionaire, but I at least want to earn a decent living doing what I love. (Which is btw impossible here since most artists are paid around minimum wage- in fact we don't even have a concept of minimum wage. We live off whatever we can find and any job we can help in). This is not the life I want for myself. Fortunately, there is only one way to achieve this- to take on massive debt and study in the West. The problem again stands that, as an immigrant, the only way I can stay in America after my studies is by having a lucrative job or earning enough to file for visa extensions so as to not be deported. These things require networking and "hustling". And while I really really respect the sentiment of making art for the love of it, I'm forced to consider the ",dirty aspects of the art world" including network-making. I do not want to offend anyone here but I just want people to look at art education from the eyes of an immigrant because the sad truth will always be that as much as I want to make art for the sake of art, I could be deported anytime if I'm not a financial contributor to the country.

I would be grateful if anyone could answer my questions above but please consider my perspective on this and my insistence on learning of "faculty connections" and "networking opportunities" that come with big name schools such as Sva or Parsons. I hope I haven't offended anybody.

 

TL,DR: Pls Respond to Paragraphs 1 and 2.

Edited March 7, 2021 by dramallama_07
.

[Killerdonuts]

15 minutes ago, dramallama_07 said:

I had a very curious question for anybody who can answer. It seems that a lot of people here have been to big name schools such as Parsons, SVA, Pratt etc.(/any other big name school) in the form of undergrad/residencies etc. And quite a few people haven't had as good experiences as they'd hoped, especially in terms of faculty who weren't as enthusiastic or helpful or available as they should've been.

However I've been told by people after I shared these above sentiments with that the case is different for MFAs and as disgusting as that sounds, many faculties although might not be paying as much attention to the UG programs, they will surely be more attentive to the PG ones since MFAs are usually supposed to be jumpstart platforms for artists and that PG courses are for obvious reasons taken more seriously by both the students and the faculties (As opposed to say, UG courses). I don't know how much of this is true and if anyone could provide any insight to this I'd be very grateful.

I speak as an International student so I have no idea of how the MFAs are regarded in the West (as opposed to BFAs or other programs) but I do feel that PG students are usually taken more seriously by the teachers.

P.S: If anyone finds my above sentiments distasteful, I want to respectfully let everyone know that I have virtually no idea how MFAs work in the West and how the "art world", of which America plays a crucial role,  actually works. While I understand that many people want to do art for the sake of art itself and not its commercial aspect (a sentiment I really respect), I want to let everyone know the reality of International students (especially those from third world countries) like myself. Where I live, there is no art funding. Art education is REALLY frowned upon in our country and artists are usually likened to beggars and sometimes even treated as ones. From where I stand, the West seems more accomodating in terms of art. I do not want to be a millionaire, but I at least want to earn a decent living doing what I love. (Which is btw impossible here since most artists are paid around minimum wage- in fact we don't even have a concept of minimum wage. We live off whatever we can find and any job we can help in). This is not the life I want for myself. Fortunately, there is only one way to achieve this- to take on massive debt and study in the West. The problem again stands that, as an immigrant, the only way I can stay in America after my studies is by having a lucrative job or earning enough to file for visa extensions so as to not be deported. These things require networking and "hustling". And while I really really respect the sentiment of making art for the love of it, I'm forced to consider the ",dirty aspects of the art world" including network-making. I do not want to offend anyone here but I just want people to look at art education from the eyes of an immigrant because the sad truth will always be that as much as I want to make art for the sake of art, I could be deported anytime if I'm not a financial contributor to the country.

I would be grateful if anyone could answer my questions above but please consider my perspective on this and my insistence on learning of "faculty connections" and "networking opportunities" that come with big name schools such as Sva or Parsons. I hope I haven't offended anybody.

 

TL,DR: Pls Respond to Paragraphs 1 and 2.

The majority of artist in the US don't make a full living off of their artwork. Most artists work multiple jobs, as arts administrators especially, while also maintaining an art practice. I don't know a lot about the visa system in the US, but you might need to have a full time job with an employer who will sponsor you. You could definitely get a full time arts administration job with an MFA degree (and then you can work on your art practice in addition to a full time job - that is common here.) This is not at all a bad approach to a career in the Arts. Art administration gives you the chance to learn about managing an arts organization (nonprofits, galleries, museums, etc) which will give you valuable insight in to the field. And artists should be able to engage with the arts community on multiple levels, beyond just the creation of their own artwork.

I know this doesn't help you for this round of applications, but if you choose to apply again next yeat, you might look at Canadian universities, like Concordia, OCAD, UBC, or Emily Carr. Canada has a specific program from international students who graduated from Canadian university to get Permanent Residency. (You can apply for an extension of your visa for up to three years after you graduate, to look for full time work.)

[artlover123]

does anyone have any insight into or thoughts on U Penn’s MFA program? 

[Hphphphp]

1 hour ago, SocialKonstruct said:

I agree. My art practice right now in my BFA photography program has shifted a lot already. When I started school two years ago I wanted to be a photojournalist but now I am interested in social practice and conceptually constructed photography and sculpture. Theaster Gates is pretty awesome and I look to his example of how to conduct an ethical and thoughtful studio practice. Already he is helping out Chicago better and faster than the local politicians there who argue over how to reconstruct Chicago cultural centers.

Funny you say that, a good friend of mine worked as his assistant for 6 months after college and she hated every single second of it. She says he was incredibly exploitative, inconsiderate, mean and overall a terrible terrible boss. I met him once and he seemed *very* performative, not a very  authentic person

[theundoing]

2 hours ago, NCS14512 said:

I would also just like to chime in-- I worked for a non profit artist residency and was on the jury and when we reviewed applicants WE LOOKED AT THEIR WORK FIRST. Their education hardly ever came into play- sure we had artists that went to UCLA, Yale and wherever but we also had phenomenal artists from "lower tier" universities and they were in no way hindered by their education. It boils my blood to see someone speak for the artworld, to look at profiles and deem them worthy of acceptance, or to use this platform as a personal blog to advance their own credibility and career. Be humble, be aware, be open to the idea that the art world is not black and white. For those of you feeling like your education will dictate the rest of your art career- know that there are so many institutions and people out there that will look at your work first.

I think the context has been removed from the original conversation. I thought the conversation was about the question of is a super expensive MFA worth the cost? To me that is where it is very important to be frank about how much of the moneyed artworld operates. Residencies are amazing but they won't pay off your six figure debt. If someone is trying to balance the cost of a pricey MFA they should know that some programs give you more artworld lotto tickets to sell your work for real money vs. others. Of course this can all change and I hope it changes but....I kinda think the days where an artist could be discovered while working as an art handler or partying in the LES are behind us. If you want want to do an MFA because you love being in the studio and love being in conversation with other artists that is also great but then it seems that an artist should prioritize fully funded or well funded programs. I think it is admirable that your residency looks at the work first but that is not always the case. I don't think it is ethical to tell prospectives that they can just go ahead and take on six figures of debt outside of a top 5 school because the work is the most important. 

I don't find @SocialKonstruct to be self promoting ...more trying to connect. But I'm biased because I asked for help with my images and him and one other person on this forum volunteered to meet with me and chat about my portfolio and images.

[Lemon2Lemonade]

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