The 'Am I competitive' thread - READ ME BEFORE POSTING

[MPPhopeful2021]

Hi everybody! Thanks in advance for any insight you're able to provide.

Undergraduate institution: Top five U.S. university
Undergraduate GPA: 3.9
Undergraduate Major: Humanities
GRE Quantitative Score: Haven't taken the official exam yet but my latest quant practice score -- Power Prep test one -- was 163
GRE Verbal Score: Haven't taken the official exam yet but my verbal latest practice score -- Power Prep test one -- was 167

Schools applying to: Still finalizing my list, but I'm currently thinking of HKS MPP, Princeton/SPIA MPA, Columbia/SIPA MPP, Stanford/Ford Dorsey MA in International Policy, Berkeley/Goldman MPP, and Oxford MPP. I might throw in LSE?
Years Out of Undergrad (if applicable): 4
Years of Work Experience: 4
Describe Relevant Work Experience:  I have a unique, somewhat prominent position in a congressional office.
Strength of SOP (be honest, describe the process, etc): I'm still in the process of formulating this, but I believe it will be strong and I can tie what I aim to pursue in grad school to my current role and past experience. 
Strength of LOR's (be honest, describe the process, etc): I certainly hope they will be strong. Since I've had my job for a while, they may all be from my current workplace. Not sure if this is a problem.
Other: While I'm not completely set on this, as of right now I hope to pursue foreign policy in whatever program I'm fortunate enough to get into. I don't have a quantitative background though, so I'm concerned that programs may not consider me for that reason right off the bat. (Would it help if I mentioned that I'd enroll in a stats or ec course this spring?) 

[GradSchoolGrad]

6 hours ago, MPPhopeful2021 said:

Hi everybody! Thanks in advance for any insight you're able to provide.

Undergraduate institution: Top five U.S. university
Undergraduate GPA: 3.9
Undergraduate Major: Humanities
GRE Quantitative Score: Haven't taken the official exam yet but my latest quant practice score -- Power Prep test one -- was 163
GRE Verbal Score: Haven't taken the official exam yet but my verbal latest practice score -- Power Prep test one -- was 167

Schools applying to: Still finalizing my list, but I'm currently thinking of HKS MPP, Princeton/SPIA MPA, Columbia/SIPA MPP, Stanford/Ford Dorsey MA in International Policy, Berkeley/Goldman MPP, and Oxford MPP. I might throw in LSE?
Years Out of Undergrad (if applicable): 4
Years of Work Experience: 4
Describe Relevant Work Experience:  I have a unique, somewhat prominent position in a congressional office.
Strength of SOP (be honest, describe the process, etc): I'm still in the process of formulating this, but I believe it will be strong and I can tie what I aim to pursue in grad school to my current role and past experience. 
Strength of LOR's (be honest, describe the process, etc): I certainly hope they will be strong. Since I've had my job for a while, they may all be from my current workplace. Not sure if this is a problem.
Other: While I'm not completely set on this, as of right now I hope to pursue foreign policy in whatever program I'm fortunate enough to get into. I don't have a quantitative background though, so I'm concerned that programs may not consider me for that reason right off the bat. (Would it help if I mentioned that I'd enroll in a stats or ec course this spring?) 

1. Regarding quant - enrolling and getting grades in are two separate. Grades verifying your level of aptitude and is what really matter. That being said, there are less quant programs... Oxford for Example - way less quant (although they kind of expect you coming in with a good understanding of research methods). 

2. When I see a list that is essentially the whose who of the top 5 programs or so, it suggests to me that you probably need to better consider:
a. where you want to be location wise post graduation - because location matters

b. what career out comes you want coming out of this. 

3. This is what I don't understand - why are you seeking policy programs when you want to be involved in foreign policy. I think you should more aggressively go for International Relations programs whereby I think you would be in a good spot to got awesome scholarship money and quant matters less (it still will matter a bit). I'm thinking Georgetown's MSFS program and stuff like that should be a solid lock for you.

4. Until you take the GRE, don't count your chickens before that hatch.

Edited September 5, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[MPPhopeful2021]

9 minutes ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

1. Regarding quant - enrolling and getting grades in are two separate. Grades verifying your level of aptitude and is what really matter. That being said, there are less quant programs... Oxford for Example - way less quant (although they kind of expect you coming in with a good understanding of research methods). 

2. When I see a list that is essentially the whose who of the top 5 programs or so, it suggests to me that you probably need to better consider:
a. where you want to be location wise post graduation - because location matters

b. what career out comes you want coming out of this. 

3. This is what I don't understand - why are you seeking policy programs when you want to be involved in foreign policy. I think you should more aggressively go for International Relations programs whereby I think you would be in a good spot to got awesome scholarship money and quant matters less (it still will matter a bit). I'm thinking Georgetown's MSFS program and stuff like that should be a solid lock for you.

4. Until you take the GRE, don't count your chickens before that hatch.

Hello there and thank you for the reply! All good questions. To answer them: I'm pretty competent in math, I just didn't take those kinds of courses at my university. I have ties to both the NE and NorCal, so I've chosen only schools that correlate with that (along with Oxford). Princeton is the one I'm considering nixing. I'm not certain I want to focus on foreign policy; I want to go to a policy program I believe, but at schools like HKS one of the fields you can specialize in is foreign policy-related, and that's what I was getting at (though that may have been unclear!). And believe me: I'm dreading the GRE, not one chicken has being counted! 

[GradSchoolGrad]

Just now, MPPhopeful2021 said:

Hello there and thank you for the reply! All good questions. To answer them: I'm pretty competent in math, I just didn't take those kinds of courses at my university. I have ties to both the NE and NorCal, so I've chosen only schools that correlate with that (along with Oxford). Princeton is the one I'm considering nixing. I'm not certain I want to focus on foreign policy; I want to go to a policy program I believe, but at schools like HKS one of the fields you can specialize in is foreign policy-related, and that's what I was getting at (though that may have been unclear!). And believe me: I'm dreading the GRE, not one chicken has being counted! 

1. So I think you need be aware of how specialization within MPP. In some schools like HKS and SIPA, they follow a subject matter cohort model, meaning that when you apply, you need to declare what subject matter cohort you want to lean your MPP towards. Hypothetically, you can change cohorts, midstream, but each programs has their own bureaucracy. Focusing on foreign policy will generally extend from the subject matter specialization of that cohort. Some do lend to foreign policy better than others, and it is on you to best determine what is what. 

Some programs do an a la carte style where you in mix and match any classes you can get ahold of to "soft specialize" in anything you want. However, I would just make sure that the program actually has alums and strengths leaning towards foreign policy. 

I'm painting this out to help you best reflect how an MPP helps your career goals.

2. There is being good at math and being good at econometrics / calculus based econometrics (some schools require this to some extent - i.e. HKS). Usually being good at math helps, but not necessarily. This is why quant intensive quant programs like to see demonstrations of higher level quant potential (i.e. high Calc grades in college or econometrics in college) to be more specific. 

[Kresen]

Hi, everyone!! I'm so glad I found this thread. Please don't go easy on me and tell me everything I should/should not highlight in my apps! What are my weaknesses? How competitive am I? Thank you so much in advance!!

Undergraduate institution: U.S. university, top 100, but attended a campus overseas in Europe for the entirety of my undergrad years
Undergraduate GPA: 3.65 /3.79 psychology GPA
Undergraduate Major: Psychology, Spanish (both Honors degrees)
GRE Quantitative Score: 167
GRE Verbal Score: 167

Schools applying to: Canadian universities: UBC, SFU, UWestern, etc. for Psychology M.A.
Years Out of Undergrad (if applicable): 3
Years of Work Experience: 3

Describe Relevant Work Experience: Teaching children ages 7-13 / an employee in R&D in a prominent company in my home country
Strength of SOP (be honest, describe the process, etc): Still in the process, but will be pretty strong once it is finished. I have a published article (albeit non-peer reviewed), have had experience as a TA (the only undergrad to do so), have given a TEDx talk, am multilingual, and have had varied experience living abroad/working in various professional environments. Will tie in my previous/current experiences to relevant research interests.
Strength of LOR's (be honest, describe the process, etc): 2/3 professors have agreed-- both will be very strong, they are my former advisors and heads of their departments-- the remaining  professor is yet to respond, but mentioned that he might want me to write my own letter ?
Other: I am an international student. Unfortunately, I have no research experience in the field of psychology, which puts me at a huge disadvantage. My home country only gives lab research roles to MA/PhD holders. Very worried about my lack of competitiveness, as Canadian graduates seem to go through a very intensive and research heavy BA if they have an Honors degree.

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by ENESKR

[MPPhopeful2021]

12 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

1. So I think you need be aware of how specialization within MPP. In some schools like HKS and SIPA, they follow a subject matter cohort model, meaning that when you apply, you need to declare what subject matter cohort you want to lean your MPP towards. Hypothetically, you can change cohorts, midstream, but each programs has their own bureaucracy. Focusing on foreign policy will generally extend from the subject matter specialization of that cohort. Some do lend to foreign policy better than others, and it is on you to best determine what is what. 

Some programs do an a la carte style where you in mix and match any classes you can get ahold of to "soft specialize" in anything you want. However, I would just make sure that the program actually has alums and strengths leaning towards foreign policy. 

I'm painting this out to help you best reflect how an MPP helps your career goals.

2. There is being good at math and being good at econometrics / calculus based econometrics (some schools require this to some extent - i.e. HKS). Usually being good at math helps, but not necessarily. This is why quant intensive quant programs like to see demonstrations of higher level quant potential (i.e. high Calc grades in college or econometrics in college) to be more specific. 

Thanks a bunch, GSG! I guess my question for you would be whether you think I would be eliminated off the bat from any of the schools mentioned on my list (perhaps Princeton?) given that last of econometrics background. Completely understand that I don't have the solid quantitative background schools typically like to see, but the other part of my application will hopefully be very unique and stand out.

[GradSchoolGrad]

5 hours ago, MPPhopeful2021 said:

Thanks a bunch, GSG! I guess my question for you would be whether you think I would be eliminated off the bat from any of the schools mentioned on my list (perhaps Princeton?) given that last of econometrics background. Completely understand that I don't have the solid quantitative background schools typically like to see, but the other part of my application will hopefully be very unique and stand out.

Here is the deal, beyond someone who has shown Calc/econometric competence, there is a risk about the ability to graduate. That might sound silly to those unfamiliar with the schools in detail, but every year there is small but noticed proportion of students who either wash out early, fail to graduate, or have to delay their graduation. Almost every case I personally know was in some way shape or form related to quant struggles. Yes, I know someone who delayed graduation at Princeton MPP in order to meet quant requirements.

As for overcoming the quant requirement with other impressive factors about yourself. The answer is - every year, each school builds a new risk profile based upon a combination of expected application numbers and target class size. This upcoming application cycle will be really unpredictable. 

I could see this as being both one of the more competitive cycles in recent memory or a slack one. This could be a crazy competitive application cycle if the perfect storm of:

A. Those who deferred from last year, seek to claim their spots

B. The weaker economy brings people to loiter at graduate school

C. Heightened awareness of policy issues drive people to go to policy schools.

However, if their is a massive drop of international students, economy free fall, and/or COVID having a 2nd surge going into next Fall, the application cycle might end up being not as competitive after all and schools will have a more slack risk profile. 

I bring this up, because how willing a school is willing to take risk on your lack of calc/econometrics based upon how interesting your background depends on how competitive the application cycle is. If there are people in front of you with interesting backgrounds and have a more proven ability to graduate, obviously you look less appealing.

Some examples for context.

1. I knew a Military Academy graduate who a sub 2.5 undergraduate GPA who got into Chicago Harris. However, he was an engineering major and had some very challenging deployment situations. Chicago Harris, probably took the risk that his ability to overcome extreme hardship (comparatively) might mean his ability to conquer quant. 

Now I will say that MPP programs with robust "math camp options" like U. Chicago Harris - will generally be more risk willing in taking people who don't have as strong quant background but willing to take chance on them based upon interesting background. 

2. My sister was in HKS with Ashley Judd (the actress), who shocked people with how quant capable she was because she actually had a solid academic background at the Honors college at the University of Kentucky with some quant classes. My point is that, even with a celeb, she had credentials (though people doubted her at first). 

I think you want to understand the types of program quant difficulty as well.

There is depth (level of difficulty) and breadth (scope). Another twist will be that those with more depth, will generally be less risk willing (i.e. Princeton MPP). Those with medium depth but high breadth (my program), will be much more risk willing.

ONE THING TO THINK ABOUT... its good to challenge yourself, but you don't want to go into a situation whereby you are miserable either. Do you want to kill yourself (figuratively speaking academically) just trying to graduate the curriculum in order to get a slightly higher brand name degree? I know plenty of people who focused too much on school and screwed up on the career angle because they didn't sufficiently focus on the networking/career discovery side. 

 

[MPPhopeful2021]

22 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

Here is the deal, beyond someone who has shown Calc/econometric competence, there is a risk about the ability to graduate. That might sound silly to those unfamiliar with the schools in detail, but every year there is small but noticed proportion of students who either wash out early, fail to graduate, or have to delay their graduation. Almost every case I personally know was in some way shape or form related to quant struggles. Yes, I know someone who delayed graduation at Princeton MPP in order to meet quant requirements.

As for overcoming the quant requirement with other impressive factors about yourself. The answer is - every year, each school builds a new risk profile based upon a combination of expected application numbers and target class size. This upcoming application cycle will be really unpredictable. 

I could see this as being both one of the more competitive cycles in recent memory or a slack one. This could be a crazy competitive application cycle if the perfect storm of:

A. Those who deferred from last year, seek to claim their spots

B. The weaker economy brings people to loiter at graduate school

C. Heightened awareness of policy issues drive people to go to policy schools.

However, if their is a massive drop of international students, economy free fall, and/or COVID having a 2nd surge going into next Fall, the application cycle might end up being not as competitive after all and schools will have a more slack risk profile. 

I bring this up, because how willing a school is willing to take risk on your lack of calc/econometrics based upon how interesting your background depends on how competitive the application cycle is. If there are people in front of you with interesting backgrounds and have a more proven ability to graduate, obviously you look less appealing.

Some examples for context.

1. I knew a Military Academy graduate who a sub 2.5 undergraduate GPA who got into Chicago Harris. However, he was an engineering major and had some very challenging deployment situations. Chicago Harris, probably took the risk that his ability to overcome extreme hardship (comparatively) might mean his ability to conquer quant. 

Now I will say that MPP programs with robust "math camp options" like U. Chicago Harris - will generally be more risk willing in taking people who don't have as strong quant background but willing to take chance on them based upon interesting background. 

2. My sister was in HKS with Ashley Judd (the actress), who shocked people with how quant capable she was because she actually had a solid academic background at the Honors college at the University of Kentucky with some quant classes. My point is that, even with a celeb, she had credentials (though people doubted her at first). 

I think you want to understand the types of program quant difficulty as well.

There is depth (level of difficulty) and breadth (scope). Another twist will be that those with more depth, will generally be less risk willing (i.e. Princeton MPP). Those with medium depth but high breadth (my program), will be much more risk willing.

ONE THING TO THINK ABOUT... its good to challenge yourself, but you don't want to go into a situation whereby you are miserable either. Do you want to kill yourself (figuratively speaking academically) just trying to graduate the curriculum in order to get a slightly higher brand name degree? I know plenty of people who focused too much on school and screwed up on the career angle because they didn't sufficiently focus on the networking/career discovery side. 

 

Thank you a ton for this insight and the time you spent answering! Very grateful to you!

[joshyboy]

Candidate: Asian male

Applying to: MPP at HKS, Berkeley, Princeton, UChicago, Georgetown, Duke, Oxford, UMich, LSE

Undergraduate Institution: UC Berkeley

Undergraduate GPA: 3.2

GRE Quantitative Score: 155
GRE Verbal Score: 160

Undergraduate Major: Political Science

Years out of college: 4

Languages Skills: English

Relevant Work Experience: Started my own company straight out of college. Secured $3M in venture funding, went through Y-Combinator, scaled company to 250 colleges, with over half a million users throughout the U.S

Publications: Contributing writer for The Huffington Post, articles viewed over 750k times. 

Quant Background: Intro to Stats, Intro to Empirical Theory & Quantitative Methods

Awards: Forbes 30 Under 30, Leadership Award Scholar at UC Berkeley

Strength of SOP: Emphasis on why public service is my calling. I highlight my extracurriculars and volunteering rooted in public service during college and whilst running my startup. 

Strength of LOR: 3 strong letters; 1 from city council-member, 1 from startup founder, 1 from VC

Other: Interpreter for Sri Lankan refugees seeking asylum, taught high school English for prison inmates as a part of their rehabilitation program, served as a city commissioner advising the mayor of my city whilst in college, serve on the board of advisors for another startup, elected as a student senator on campus representing 36k students.

Totally aware that my GPA and lack of quant experience are my weakest point. Would also love to get feedback on any additional schools y'all think I should consider applying for. Thank you again.  

 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by joshyboy

[GradSchoolGrad]

5 hours ago, joshyboy said:

Candidate: Asian male

Applying to: MPP at HKS, Berkeley, Princeton, UChicago, Georgetown, Duke, Oxford, UMich, LSE

Undergraduate Institution: UC Berkeley

Undergraduate GPA: 3.2

GRE Quantitative Score: 155
GRE Verbal Score: 160

Undergraduate Major: Political Science

Years out of college: 4

Languages Skills: English

Relevant Work Experience: Started my own company straight out of college. Secured $3M in venture funding, went through Y-Combinator, scaled company to 250 colleges, with over half a million users throughout the U.S

Publications: Contributing writer for The Huffington Post, articles viewed over 750k times. 

Quant Background: Intro to Stats, Intro to Empirical Theory & Quantitative Methods

Awards: Forbes 30 Under 30, Leadership Award Scholar at UC Berkeley

Strength of SOP: Emphasis on why public service is my calling. I highlight my extracurriculars and volunteering rooted in public service during college and whilst running my startup. 

Strength of LOR: 3 strong letters; 1 from city council-member, 1 from startup founder, 1 from VC

Other: Interpreter for Sri Lankan refugees seeking asylum, taught high school English for prison inmates as a part of their rehabilitation program, served as a city commissioner advising the mayor of my city whilst in college, serve on the board of advisors for another startup, elected as a student senator on campus representing 36k students.

Totally aware that my GPA and lack of quant experience are my weakest point. Would also love to get feedback on any additional schools y'all think I should consider applying for. Thank you again.  

 

 

Some thoughts.

1. It seems like you just made a list of the top brand schools and haven't done a more in depth look at each school. I say that because you include Oxford MPP on this list. Oxford MPP has a US GPA minimum to apply (I think it is around 3.7) and it is pretty up front and center on their applications webpage.

2. You need to give more consideration to Geography because although most strong schools feed into DC to some degree, outside of that, they have broad regional strengths. If you go to Princeton, it will be more challenging to go back to West Coast (it was after all a small school) vs. Berkeley Goldman.

3. I think you need to think about how much you want to make your life miserable by academically learning calc based econometrics while having the demands of networking + extracurriculars + sleep + social life while in grad school. I know people who spent so much of their grad school experience surviving quant, they screwed up the career side of things. I don't think this you, but I also know people who washed out of / had delayed graduation because they struggled with quant so much.

4. So right now the challenge is that no one knows how the application demand cycle will turn out. The big mystery factors are international students (I bet somewhat tied to the election) and COVID-19. However, traditional wisdom indicates that this will be a hype competitive application cycle for ALL grad school programs. MBAs (which are more open about their application demand, have seen increased application numbers).

I mention this because you are in the category of students with impressive professional life but require taking risk regarding the ability to graduate. The risk profile each school is willing to take on you is dependent on how competitive this application cycle (lets not forget scholarships). 

5. Right now your combination of weaknesses are GPA, lower than desired quant GRE - given the caliber of schools you are shooting for and you don't have other backers for quant, and lack of higher level quant classes in undergrad. Had you had a high quant GRE, you might have a more legitimate argument to the admissions committee. 

That being said, my pre-COVID take on you is:

HKS - awkwardly a slight maybe, they like diversity and you are unique enough... but if you face an uphill battle with quant

Berkeley Goldman - don't know the school's admissions well enough

Princeton MPP - No - probably tied with Chicago as the most quant program.

Chicago - Harris - maybe - Chicago invests in summer camp to give folks like your a better shot. Just keep in mind it will be really heavy quant classes

Georgetown. McCourt - yes and you'll probably get a scholarship. However - unless you really care about data analytics and want to pursue a data oriented job, it doesn't make sense for you to go to McCourt. Also, folks from business are rather rare in McCourt.

Duke - maybe 

U Mich - unlikely

LSE - don't know the program well enough.

6. I recommend you maybe apply in another application cycle so you have time to bump up your GRE or face less instability. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[joshyboy]

10 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

Some thoughts.

1. It seems like you just made a list of the top brand schools and haven't done a more in depth look at each school. I say that because you include Oxford MPP on this list. Oxford MPP has a US GPA minimum to apply (I think it is around 3.7) and it is pretty up front and center on their applications webpage.

2. You need to give more consideration to Geography because although most strong schools feed into DC to some degree, outside of that, they have broad regional strengths. If you go to Princeton, it will be more challenging to go back to West Coast (it was after all a small school) vs. Berkeley Goldman.

3. I think you need to think about how much you want to make your life miserable by academically learning calc based econometrics while having the demands of networking + extracurriculars + sleep + social life while in grad school. I know people who spent so much of their grad school experience surviving quant, they screwed up the career side of things. I don't think this you, but I also know people who washed out of / had delayed graduation because they struggled with quant so much.

4. So right now the challenge is that no one knows how the application demand cycle will turn out. The big mystery factors are international students (I bet somewhat tied to the election) and COVID-19. However, traditional wisdom indicates that this will be a hype competitive application cycle for ALL grad school programs. MBAs (which are more open about their application demand, have seen increased application numbers).

I mention this because you are in the category of students with impressive professional life but require taking risk regarding the ability to graduate. The risk profile each school is willing to take on you is dependent on how competitive this application cycle (lets not forget scholarships). 

5. Right now your combination of weaknesses are GPA, lower than desired quant GRE - given the caliber of schools you are shooting for and you don't have other backers for quant, and lack of higher level quant classes in undergrad. Had you had a high quant GRE, you might have a more legitimate argument to the admissions committee. 

That being said, my pre-COVID take on you is:

HKS - awkwardly a slight maybe, they like diversity and you are unique enough... but if you face an uphill battle with quant

Berkeley Goldman - don't know the school's admissions well enough

Princeton MPP - No - probably tied with Chicago as the most quant program.

Chicago - Harris - maybe - Chicago invests in summer camp to give folks like your a better shot. Just keep in mind it will be really heavy quant classes

Georgetown. McCourt - yes and you'll probably get a scholarship. However - unless you really care about data analytics and want to pursue a data oriented job, it doesn't make sense for you to go to McCourt. Also, folks from business are rather rare in McCourt.

Duke - maybe 

U Mich - unlikely

LSE - don't know the program well enough.

6. I recommend you maybe apply in another application cycle so you have time to bump up your GRE or face less instability. 

Hey @GradSchoolGrad, thanks so much for taking the time to respond, appreciate how thorough your feedback is. 

The only reason I included Oxford is because I've always wanted to study in London, but also the application page says "the minimum GPA sought is usually a 3.7 out of 4.0". It said "usually" so I took that as there could be some wiggle room if you had an impressive application in other areas, but your point still stands. 

Couple of questions for you:

1. Are there other schools I should look into?

2. Obviously a perfect quant score would be great, but what's the minimum you think I should aim for?

3. How did you go about narrowing down or deciding which schools you wanted to apply to as you were putting together your application?

Thanks again

Edited September 8, 2020 by joshyboy

[GradSchoolGrad]

25 minutes ago, joshyboy said:

Hey @GradSchoolGrad, thanks so much for taking the time to respond, appreciate how thorough your feedback is. 

The only reason I included Oxford is because I've always wanted to study in London, but also the application page says "the minimum GPA sought is usually a 3.7 out of 4.0". It said "usually" so I took that as there could be some wiggle room if you had an impressive application in other areas, but your point still stands. 

Couple of questions for you:

1. Are there other schools I should look into?

2. Obviously a perfect quant score would be great, but what's the minimum you think I should aim for?

3. How did you go about narrowing down or deciding which schools you wanted to apply to as you were putting together your application?

Thanks again

1. You do realize Oxford is not in London, but a 2 hour bus ride outside of London and the town of Oxford has a significantly different vibe than London? (I have 2 siblings and a best friend from college who studied there). That is like the distance of Philadelphia from New York. The British schools are actually very rule based. When they give a minimum, it means you have to have some crazy story to justify defying it. 

2. As for other schools... you need tell me what are you trying to do with grad school career wise? Are you just trying to buy 2 years to explore and hopefully end up with something generally good? Do you want to go into legislative stuff? Operations type stuff? Consulting? Research? What exactly are you trying to do.

Also, what type of culture are you looking for? Are you trying to look for a tight knit student community or one whereby everyone does their own thing?

Do you want a school that is more data focused or more operations focused?

Do you want something that is more career focused or more academic? 

3. I would say in your case try to get above 90 percentile.

4. So I would not do what I did. I focused on location and only location for specific personal reasons. It was nice I got a good scholarship, but ultimately, my school was not right for me. I view it as too academic, insufficiently focused on career, and ethically blighted. One of the reasons why I'm so active is that I want others to learn from my mistakes. Luckily I landed really well since grad school, but I was a hair away from screwing up my professional aspirations since I chose poorly. \

5. I'm also a bit confused why you want an MPP. I think you might be a better fit for a social impact oriented MBA (assuming you got your GRE scores up and there is some career alignment there). 

Edited September 8, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[joshyboy]

7 minutes ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

1. You do realize Oxford is not in London, but a 2 hour bus ride outside of London and the town of Oxford has a significantly different vibe than London? (I have 2 siblings and a best friend from college who studied there). That is like the distance of Philadelphia from New York. The British schools are actually very rule based. When they give a minimum, it means you have to have some crazy story to justify defying it. 

2. As for other schools... you need tell me what are you trying to do with grad school career wise? Are you just trying to buy 2 years to explore and hopefully end up with something generally good? Do you want to go into legislative stuff? Operations type stuff? Consulting? Research? What exactly are you trying to do.

Also, what type of culture are you looking for? Are you trying to look for a tight knit student community or one whereby everyone does their own thing?

Do you want a school that is more data focused or more operations focused?

Do you want something that is more career focused or more academic? 

3. I would say in your case try to get above 90 percentile.

4. So I would not do what I did. I focused on location and only location for specific personal reasons. It was nice I got a good scholarship, but ultimately, my school was not right for me. I view it as too academic, insufficiently focused on career, and ethically blighted. One of the reasons why I'm so active is that I want others to learn from my mistakes. Luckily I landed really well since grad school, but I was a hair away from screwing up my professional aspirations since I chose poorly. 

I appreciate your candid thoughts!

I'm fairly certain I want to go into legislative & policy advising either on The Hill / WH (depending on who's in office). 

A part of me wonders whether I absolutely need an MPP to get my foot through the door, but I also realize there's a lot for me to learn, especially when it comes to understanding analysis and the practical application. 

I'm definitely more career focused, I see my MPP as a means to an end, but I do love learning and live by the whole "work hard, play hard" mentality which Berkeley really instilled in me. I feel like Goldman would be a good vibe for me, but I need to speak to a few more friends first. 

Though my work experience thus far has been more operational, I want to still learn a lot about data, quant and it's application, as I believe it'll only strengthen me as a policy person. 

California is home (I live in SF), so Berkeley would be an ideal location, but there's a lot to see in the world, and as someone who will most likely need scholarship money, I have to follow the $$ when making decisions as well.

[EscapingBrexit]

Not after application advice per se, but I just want to make sure I haven't missed any programs before I start working on the rest of them! 

I'm looking for an IR/Human Rights/Conflict Resolution-type program. I've carried out exhaustive research on these, but let me know if you see somewhere I should consider. 

My list is (ranked from top choice down).

Georgetown MSFS or Conflict Resolution

Harvard Kennedy MPP 

Princeton SPIA MPA 

Yale Jackson MA Global Affairs 

Notre Dame MA Global Affairs (International Peace Studies). 

Is there a great program I should consider? 

I have ruled out the following: Columbia (Living in NY not good for my family, love the program though), SAIS (too quant heavy for me, though their programs are great), GWU Elliot (I don't meet language Prereqs), Tufts (Ethical issue), American and George Mason. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by EscapingBrexit

[GradSchoolGrad]

Just now, EscapingBrexit said:

Not after application advice per se, but I just want to make sure I haven't missed any programs before I start working on the rest of them! 

I'm looking for an IR/Human Rights/Conflict Resolution-type program. I've carried out exhaustive research on these, but let me know if you see somewhere I should consider. 

My list is (ranked from top choice down).

Georgetown MSFS or Conflict Resolution

Harvard Kennedy MPP 

Princeton SPIA MPA 

Yale Jackson MA Global Affairs 

Notre Dame MA Global Affairs (International Peace Studies). 

Is there a great program I should consider? 

I have ruled out the following: Columbia (Living in NY not good for my family, love the program though), SAIS (too quant heavy for me, though their programs are great), GWU Elliot (I don't meet language Prereqs), Tufts (Ethical issue), American and George Mason. 

1. Do Georgetown MSFS or bust for Georgetown. Conflict Resolution is a small program that doesn't get that much funding or respect.

2. Notre Dame is not a school I have seen anyone matriculate from in the IR space. I'm sure its a good program, but simply doesn't have robust programming + alumni base.

3. I think the two you are missing are Stanford's IR program  (granted it is more Asia Pacific centered) and U. Chicago's IR program. 

4. I'm curious... what do you mean by Ethical issue with Tufts?

[EscapingBrexit]

Just now, GradSchoolGrad said:

1. Do Georgetown MSFS or bust for Georgetown. Conflict Resolution is a small program that doesn't get that much funding or respect.

2. Notre Dame is not a school I have seen anyone matriculate from in the IR space. I'm sure its a good program, but simply doesn't have robust programming + alumni base.

3. I think the two you are missing are Stanford's IR program  (granted it is more Asia Pacific centered) and U. Chicago's IR program. 

4. I'm curious... what do you mean by Ethical issue with Tufts?

Thanks for the quick reply! 

1. That is what I was leaning towards also with Georgetown. I've requested more info on Conflict Res but I think the MSFS makes more sense. Better shot at funding as you say. 

2. Notre Dame has a fully-funded Peace/Justice program which has a decent reputation I think, hence why it is on the list. I take your point though. 

3. I was looking at Chicago briefly a minute ago but wasn't sure of its reputation? Stanford is too APAC for me, I'm very much Africa focused. 

4. Haha! One for DMs. 

[sal41]

On 9/4/2020 at 1:46 PM, GradSchoolGrad said:

So from a pure baseline perspective, you are what admissions committees have referred to as a star candidate - as in you really check the block for the major categories. Your GRE is a bit lower than normal star candidates, but given your high GPA, I don't view it as a problem. I think for you, the challenge is more so about what works best for your career interests.

So some things that would be good to know about you to help guide you. 

1. How comfortable are you with Calculus and Calculus based econometrics? Academically? Professionally?

2. I just want to make sure that you aren't trying to target for a PhD... you border line sound like you might be tracking for that as a possibility... but just want to make sure.

3. Where do you want to take you career? Focused on data analysis + research, or being a policy mover and shaker (basically some level of operations of some sort

4. How dedicated are you to K-12 education? I say this because of all the policy areas across grad schools, I saw the highest proportion of policy area pivots from K-12 education to another policy area (including myself) due to how crazy competitive it is + very clique community + oversaturated it is with talent + limited NEW innovation / multidisciplinary aspects with the field which made it rather unattractive

5. How much do you care about scholarships? Of your listed options so far, I would imagine McCourt and Penn to probably most willing to grant you scholarships, but I view those (at this point) as some of the weaker options for you.

Right now... my general thoughts are:

1. UPENN MSPP-DA does not make sense unless you are trying to pursue a PhD + are interested in one of their niche programs/projects/connections ongoing. From a pure career perspective, it probably has the least range of career flexibility

2. HKS MPP / Chicago Harris MPP - are probably the top notch programs for your area - broadly speaking. Terry Sanford is great if you want to have a more state and local focus. 

3. Another option is to M.ED. program with a data focus at Peabody, Stanford, or Johns Hopkins - again depending on your dedication to K-12.

4. McCourt can be a good option if you want to do heads down in DC area think tanks / research firms with a data focus, but little else besides that (basically not really operational stuff) or innovation stuff unless you want to dual degree. 

5. Another option for you is if you want to do a data focused policy program. Chicago, Heinz, and McCourt all have them (I would say Heinz and Chicago are probably tied for quality... McCourt Data Science Policy Master's is a much better organized program than the straight MPP. 

Lets carry the convo from here.

 

 

Thank you for this feedback! It's incredibly helpful. Some quick responses to your questions:

1. How comfortable are you with Calculus and Calculus based econometrics? Academically? Professionally? Not very comfortable - my last calculus course was AP in high school. How big of a weakness is this? Would it be helpful to take a calculus course at a local community college and if so, should I state plans to do that in the spring?

2. I just want to make sure that you aren't trying to target for a PhD... you border line sound like you might be tracking for that as a possibility... but just want to make sure. I don't think I'm interested in a PhD.

3. Where do you want to take you career? Focused on data analysis + research, or being a policy mover and shaker (basically some level of operations of some sort. I want to be a policy mover/shaker, but I feel that my weak quantitative skills could be a barrier to entry in the first few jobs directly out of graduate school, w hich is why I'm hoping to strengthen them. I recognize they wouldn't be as necessary for my long-term goals of working high up at a nonprofit/think tank/government org.

4. How dedicated are you to K-12 education? I say this because of all the policy areas across grad schools, I saw the highest proportion of policy area pivots from K-12 education to another policy area (including myself) due to how crazy competitive it is + very clique community + oversaturated it is with talent + limited NEW innovation / multidisciplinary aspects with the field which made it rather unattractive. I am not dedicated to only K-12 education -- my experience the last few years has opened my eyes to how much I care about all types of social policy (education, food, transportation, housing, etc.) and the intersection that all of those play. For my interest statement, how much would you recommend I focus in on K-12 since that's where my experience is vs. explaining my interest in other policy areas?

5. How much do you care about scholarships? Of your listed options so far, I would imagine McCourt and Penn to probably most willing to grant you scholarships, but I view those (at this point) as some of the weaker options for you. Scholarships are important but not a deal breaker if they are unavailable. This is super helpful, thank you again!

[GradSchoolGrad]

On 9/8/2020 at 5:57 PM, als14 said:

Thank you for this feedback! It's incredibly helpful. Some quick responses to your questions:

1. How comfortable are you with Calculus and Calculus based econometrics? Academically? Professionally? Not very comfortable - my last calculus course was AP in high school. How big of a weakness is this? Would it be helpful to take a calculus course at a local community college and if so, should I state plans to do that in the spring?

2. I just want to make sure that you aren't trying to target for a PhD... you border line sound like you might be tracking for that as a possibility... but just want to make sure. I don't think I'm interested in a PhD.

3. Where do you want to take you career? Focused on data analysis + research, or being a policy mover and shaker (basically some level of operations of some sort. I want to be a policy mover/shaker, but I feel that my weak quantitative skills could be a barrier to entry in the first few jobs directly out of graduate school, w hich is why I'm hoping to strengthen them. I recognize they wouldn't be as necessary for my long-term goals of working high up at a nonprofit/think tank/government org.

4. How dedicated are you to K-12 education? I say this because of all the policy areas across grad schools, I saw the highest proportion of policy area pivots from K-12 education to another policy area (including myself) due to how crazy competitive it is + very clique community + oversaturated it is with talent + limited NEW innovation / multidisciplinary aspects with the field which made it rather unattractive. I am not dedicated to only K-12 education -- my experience the last few years has opened my eyes to how much I care about all types of social policy (education, food, transportation, housing, etc.) and the intersection that all of those play. For my interest statement, how much would you recommend I focus in on K-12 since that's where my experience is vs. explaining my interest in other policy areas?

5. How much do you care about scholarships? Of your listed options so far, I would imagine McCourt and Penn to probably most willing to grant you scholarships, but I view those (at this point) as some of the weaker options for you. Scholarships are important but not a deal breaker if they are unavailable. This is super helpful, thank you again!

1. Yes, the lack of Calc will be a bit of weakness for admissions. Here is the thing, taking Calc at a community college is an intention and not demonstration of quant skills. Basically, don't do it for admissions unless the school gives you direct guidance to do so.

2. Yep, you do need some quant skills to get to your career goals, but since you said that, it doesn't make sense for you to go somewhere like Princeton or Michigan for career purposes.

3. As for your interest statement, that varies by school and I don't want to lead you astray. I will however tell you that policy schools are overpopulated with Ed people and branding yourself as an ed person can at times make you not diverse. Ironically, I haven't met that many Food, Transportation, or Housing policy people. 

4. Got it about scholarships.

Okay school thoughts.

a. The best school you could realistically get into is probably U. Chicago Harris. HOWEVER... that school my be excessively too quant for your career purposes as it is probably tied with Princeton and Michigan as the most quant intense. However, unlike those programs, they do offer Math Camp which should level the playing field for you. So if you shooting for the top and don't mind some first year pain, U. Chicago is your place.

b. I think the best school fit for you (that you can realistically get in) will be Terry Sanford @ Duke. I know you love hearing this as a UNC person. However, Terry Sanford really is the best quant-mid MPP program focused on social policy. A lot of social policy is state and local policy issues, and Terry Sanford is spot on for that.

c. UVA - Batten school is probably the best school that you can get a sizable scholarship at.

d. UNC MPP is probably a good safety.

[GradSchoolGrad]

1 hour ago, joshyboy said:

I appreciate your candid thoughts!

I'm fairly certain I want to go into legislative & policy advising either on The Hill / WH (depending on who's in office). 

A part of me wonders whether I absolutely need an MPP to get my foot through the door, but I also realize there's a lot for me to learn, especially when it comes to understanding analysis and the practical application. 

I'm definitely more career focused, I see my MPP as a means to an end, but I do love learning and live by the whole "work hard, play hard" mentality which Berkeley really instilled in me. I feel like Goldman would be a good vibe for me, but I need to speak to a few more friends first. 

Though my work experience thus far has been more operational, I want to still learn a lot about data, quant and it's application, as I believe it'll only strengthen me as a policy person. 

California is home (I live in SF), so Berkeley would be an ideal location, but there's a lot to see in the world, and as someone who will most likely need scholarship money, I have to follow the $$ when making decisions as well.

Wow, I haven't heard someone interested in The Hill/WH in a long time. Please keep in mind that in both places, your past business background well more often be ignored than seen as an asset. By that, I mean some, 23 year old hot shot straight from undergrad can easily have more clout than you even though you a grad student + work experience. Network rules the roost over resume. You are also getting to the point for being on the older end of starting congressional staffers. Just be comfortable with that.

1. So if you want to do Federal level policy advising with Congress or the White House you have 3 avenues.

a. Go top brand (i.e. HKS/Princeton --> which I think you will have trouble getting into, 

b. Go DC (McCourt and GW Trachtenburg are the two best options)

*If you do McCourt, your life will be very lonely, as in you won't see much of your classmates outside of the classroom since you'll be working. The McCourt school programming won't be able to do that much for you if your Hill/WH dreams die. However, you have a shot at leveraging the Georgetown brand + GU Politics networking. If you are okay with going alone, that might be a good option. 

c. Focus on local issues with federal relevance and try to bring that to DC (so assuming you want to stay out West, Berkeley - Goldman and Price @ USC make the most sense for that. 

This might be the most fun option for you rather than slogging it out on the DC circuit. I don't know Goldman or Price that well other than their geographic strength though. I recommend you talk to someone from the schools who has figured out the pathway. I know it has been done before. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[joshyboy]

12 minutes ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

Wow, I haven't heard someone interested in The Hill/WH in a long time. Please keep in mind that in both places, your past business background well more often be ignored than seen as an asset. By that, I mean some, 23 year old hot shot straight from undergrad can easily have more clout than you even though you a grad student + work experience. Network rules the roost over resume. You are also getting to the point for being on the older end of starting congressional staffers. Just be comfortable with that.

1. So if you want to do Federal level policy advising with Congress or the White House you have 3 avenues.

a. Go top brand (i.e. HKS/Princeton --> which I think you will have trouble getting into, 

b. Go DC (McCourt and GW Trachtenburg are the two best options)

*If you do McCourt, your life will be very lonely, as in you won't see much of your classmates outside of the classroom since you'll be working. The McCourt school programming won't be able to do that much for you if your Hill/WH dreams die. However, you have a shot at leveraging the Georgetown brand + GU Politics networking. If you are okay with going alone, that might be a good option. 

c. Focus on local issues with federal relevance and try to bring that to DC (so assuming you want to stay out West, Berkeley - Goldman and Price @ USC make the most sense for that. 

This might be the most fun option for you rather than slogging it out on the DC circuit. I don't know Goldman or Price that well other than their geographic strength though. I recommend you talk to someone from the schools who has figured out the pathway. I know it has been done before. 

You've definitely given me a lot to think about, especially regarding local issues -> federal relevance -> DC. Appreciate the time you put into answering all our questions! Thanks again!

[realist2020]

Hi everybody! Thanks in advance for any insight you're able to provide. I will need substantial financial aid in addition to admission.

Undergraduate institution: Average US university in south
Undergraduate Major: Political Science with a minor in Economics (GPA: 3.92/4.00) 
GRE Quantitative Score:  165
GRE Verbal Score: 156
GRE AWA Score: 4.0

Schools applying to: Harvard Kennedy MPP,  Columbia SIPA MPA(Economic and Political Development),  Oxford Economics for Development, LSE Development Studies
Years Out of Undergrad (if applicable): 4
Years of Work Experience: ~4( all of it in Nepal) 
Describe Relevant Work Experience:  

One year public service fellowship ( taught in rural schools, worked with the mayor in the local rural municipality); one year of experience in data-driven project with some intersection in policy work; one short time leadership experience in rural area;  one leadership experience delivering projects to rural areas during summer/winter breaks;  and a couple of consultation works at the highest level of program design and review;

Experience with  local government and private sector; pending central government level engagement due to COVID  

Strength of SOP (be honest, describe the process, etc): have a good narrative; will have to work on it; have not started yet though 
Strength of LOR's (be honest, describe the process, etc):  hope they will be good 

Other:   A semester of study abroad( Western Europe),  a semester of national student exchange(Up North); MicroMasters Certification in Data, Economics and Development Policy from MITx ; Opinion Publications in National and International Newspapers ; Extensive exposure to rural/semi-rural areas of Nepal;  rich activities in college( Model United Nations, Orientation Leader,  Student Government,  International Student Organization) ;  Want to get into development sector in South Asia Region

Edited September 9, 2020 by realist2020

[GradSchoolGrad]

2 hours ago, realist2020 said:

Hi everybody! Thanks in advance for any insight you're able to provide. I will need substantial financial aid in addition to admission.

Undergraduate institution: Average US university in south
Undergraduate Major: Political Science with a minor in Economics (GPA: 3.92/4.00) 
GRE Quantitative Score:  165
GRE Verbal Score: 156
GRE AWA Score: 4.0

Schools applying to: Harvard Kennedy MPP,  Columbia SIPA MPA(Economic and Political Development),  Oxford Economics for Development, LSE Development Studies
Years Out of Undergrad (if applicable): 4
Years of Work Experience: ~4( all of it in Nepal) 
Describe Relevant Work Experience:  

One year public service fellowship ( taught in rural schools, worked with the mayor in the local rural municipality); one year of experience in data-driven project with some intersection in policy work; one short time leadership experience in rural area;  one leadership experience delivering projects to rural areas during summer/winter breaks;  and a couple of consultation works at the highest level of program design and review;

Experience with  local government and private sector; pending central government level engagement due to COVID  

Strength of SOP (be honest, describe the process, etc): have a good narrative; will have to work on it; have not started yet though 
Strength of LOR's (be honest, describe the process, etc):  hope they will be good 

Other:   A semester of study abroad( Western Europe),  a semester of national student exchange(Up North); MicroMasters Certification in Data, Economics and Development Policy from MITx ; Opinion Publications in National and International Newspapers ; Extensive exposure to rural/semi-rural areas of Nepal;  rich activities in college( Model United Nations, Orientation Leader,  Student Government,  International Student Organization) ;  Want to get into development sector in South Asia Region

Since you were an Econ minor and I am assuming that you did some level of Calc in college + econometrics. Given that + your identified stats, you should be fine to get into any of the schools that you identified based on Pre-Covid conditions (since this application cycle has lots of unpredictability regarding student demand going either way). I think the big challenge for you is to get scholarship from any of these schools. This will especially so since so many people deferred and will want their scholarships back. Your other challenge is that you are a South Asia international development person. You run the risk of being not diverse in work experience because so many people are South Asia development people. In fact, I struggle to think of an international development person who doesn't have experience in South Asia. That being said, these places can be a bit snooty and like people that come from brand name undergrad programs. 

If you really want scholarships, I recommend you think about other schools. whereby 

A: International Development is not as common in the school, or 

B: They have a big pot of cash to manage a small program

So some programs to think about (in no particular order):

1. Georgetown MSFS - with a Dev Concentration (general overall terrific program)

2. Georgetown MIDP - if you want to be quant focused (this is under the McCourt School, but is a much better run program than its maligned MPP program). 

3. Georgetown Global Human Development - if you want to focus more on the relationship management / operations side of the house

4. Yale Jackson - new school dripping with cash

Edited September 9, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[kb_sf]

Thanks in advance

Candidate: White female

Applying to: Harris MSCAPP, Heinz MSPPM-DA, McCourt MS-DSPP, UPenn Weitzman MUSA, NEU Urban Informatics,

Undergraduate Institution: Northeast "Public Ivy"

Undergraduate GPA: 3.5

GRE Quantitative Score: 160 (estimated)
GRE Verbal Score: 162 (estimated)

Undergraduate Major: Economics

Years out of college: 6

Languages Skills: English

Relevant Work Experience: Data Analyst at a public school network in CA, working on assessment analysis and analyzing "nudges" for students/teachers. Have been working in the social sector for four years.

Quant Background: All the intro Econ classes, Calc I, II, III, Linear Algebra, Statistics, Econometrics, proficient in python/sql and have some experience with machine learning/modeling.

Strength of SOP: Will be strong enough, writing is not generally my strongest suit. Will be able to summarize how these schools will help me further my work in data analysis for social good.

Strength of LOR: 1 very strong letter from manager, 1 very strong from former coworker, looking to get one from someone who can speak more about my quant skills than the previous two, likely won't be quite as strong.

I feel pretty confident about getting in somewhere, and I think my main concern will be how COVID will impact funding for next year. Also wondering if there are any straight MPP programs that I should be looking at that offer more data science electives? Out of school I'm hoping to work as a data scientist for a policy research organization or potentially in the private sector. I'd appreciate any thoughts!

[Westpolicy]

All schools have information and requirements on their website and every school is conducting plenty of virtual events where I suspect you can ask questions.  It is a better idea to read up on each program and attend a virtual event instead of listening to someone who has never attended the program they are discussing.  “Knowing” someone is not that same thing. 

[GradSchoolGrad]

14 minutes ago, Westpolicy said:

All schools have information and requirements on their website and every school is conducting plenty of virtual events where I suspect you can ask questions.  It is a better idea to read up on each program and attend a virtual event instead of listening to someone who has never attended the program they are discussing.  “Knowing” someone is not that same thing. 

The smartest thing to do is actually to talk to real students or recent alumni. Most schools have student ambassador like programs. However, to be really smart about it, it helps to talk to someone who isn't a student ambassador, who is pressured to sell the school and not exactly give the 100% honest opinion (I know, I was one).

The problem with the website and virtual events is that they are ultimately sales events (in fact a lot of the people who run it are PR/marketing people. You do get interesting insights and structural understanding of a program. However, there is a lot under the hood that won't be mentioned.

In terms of knowing, I think that depends on if knowing someone relates back to the school and the depth of "knowing". For example, I know my family members who gone to schools and done a lot of comparing and contrasting, and I think they are amazingly insightful "knowing someone".