sacklunch Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 (edited) Anyone know who is not taking on new students in ND's JCA program? I was told that Ulrich is retiring soon, and I assumed Vanderkam would be as well. Anyone? Edited October 3, 2013 by furtivemode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marXian Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I realize a 3 year program can be more appealing than the usual 5 to 8 (or more!) year top-tier American programs. But unless you somehow have a secure teaching job lined up post-graduation, it'll be incredibly tough to convince most American schools that a 3 year (research only) UK degree is more attractive than graduates from top and 2nd tier American programs. I completely agree with this and want to just emphasize why this is the case. Spending those two extra years is not just about doing extra coursework for the sake of coursework. I've seen a lot of people saying (in other threads) that they just don't want to do more coursework if they've already done one M* degree. I totally get that. I have two already and am earning a third in my current program. But the coursework is there (among some other reasons) to help you figure out what areas your exams are going to be in and in what direction your dissertation might go. The bottom line is that American institutions care a lot about competencies. The way you prove those is through comprehensive examinations. Those are supposed to demonstrate you're qualified to teach in the areas you take exams in. If you're in a program where all you're doing is directed research and writing a dissertation, it's going to be tough to convince American schools that you're qualified to teach, though it can be done other ways (e.g. publications.) But this is why even degrees second tier American schools may ultimately be more marketable than degrees from European schools. Certainly, there are some fantastic schools in the UK and on the continent, and I'm sure everyone knows more than a couple professors who did their doctoral work abroad, but it's important to know exactly what the disadvantages are in going that route, especially because those who do take on substantial debt. RedDoor, sogdia and Kuriakos 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-612 Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Is anyone being bogged down by the "you're not smart enough, your GPA isn't high enough, you'll blow the GRE, what, what, what are you doing?" goblin? That's where I am at the moment. I'm reading books by my POIs so I can better cater my statement of purpose towards them but still... can't imagine who'd want little old me. seroteamavi, o.j., Yetanotherdegree and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perique69 Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 (edited) I completely agree with this and want to just emphasize why this is the case. Spending those two extra years is not just about doing extra coursework for the sake of coursework. I've seen a lot of people saying (in other threads) that they just don't want to do more coursework if they've already done one M* degree. I totally get that. I have two already and am earning a third in my current program. But the coursework is there (among some other reasons) to help you figure out what areas your exams are going to be in and in what direction your dissertation might go. The bottom line is that American institutions care a lot about competencies. The way you prove those is through comprehensive examinations. Those are supposed to demonstrate you're qualified to teach in the areas you take exams in. If you're in a program where all you're doing is directed research and writing a dissertation, it's going to be tough to convince American schools that you're qualified to teach, though it can be done other ways (e.g. publications.) But this is why even degrees second tier American schools may ultimately be more marketable than degrees from European schools. Certainly, there are some fantastic schools in the UK and on the continent, and I'm sure everyone knows more than a couple professors who did their doctoral work abroad, but it's important to know exactly what the disadvantages are in going that route, especially because those who do take on substantial debt. All great points. To clarify my previous response, I'll give an example. A prominent Chair of historical studies from a very top-tier American PhD program told me this: competitive American programs consider their 2 year PhD coursework to be a "quantum leap" above any and all master-level course work. In other words, there is no way that master-level coursework supplants or even compares to PhD level seminars. A UK PhD wholly skips the first three critical years of American PhD programs; that is, the student misses two years of rigorous coursework and a full year of comprehensive exams that prepares one for the dissertation stage. Therefore, an American with a three year UK PhD graduates with a significant handicap according to most competitive American programs. This wasn't always the case, however. That's why there's a professor or two with a UK or EU degree at most American programs. But note their age. They tend to be close to retirement. Edited October 3, 2013 by Perique69 RedDoor, Lux Lex Pax and marXian 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacklunch Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Is anyone being bogged down by the "you're not smart enough, your GPA isn't high enough, you'll blow the GRE, what, what, what are you doing?" goblin? That's where I am at the moment. I'm reading books by my POIs so I can better cater my statement of purpose towards them but still... can't imagine who'd want little old me. Agreed 100%. I am mostly worried about my GRE score. I am retaking this coming Monday, but man, I just don't think I can pull a 90%+ verbal. I now have an 87%, which I am actually OK with....but you know how it goes. People say "OH you only have THAT score?" Yetanotherdegree and seroteamavi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetanotherdegree Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Agreed 100%. I am mostly worried about my GRE score. I am retaking this coming Monday, but man, I just don't think I can pull a 90%+ verbal. I now have an 87%, which I am actually OK with....but you know how it goes. People say "OH you only have THAT score?" Ugh. I'm there too, well not with the GRE but with the coursework. Everything seems so important, like one misstep and it's not going to happen. I know that's not true or right, but I am feeling it and it is kind of stressful. On the other hand, I'm loving the readings and class and just being back in school. So I'm just concentrating on the positive and slowly planning for my applications. sacklunch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDoor Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 (edited) Thanks everyone for your input. I really appreciate it! After talking to a few new students at various institutions and my current profs, I'm focusing my UK schools down to St. Andrews. In the US, the only other school I might be interested in aside from BC and Emory would be Baylor. EDIT: Have M.Div, current Th.M. student. Any other recommendations would be great. I'm honestly okay with 2nd tier or even lower schools mainly because I'm looking to teach at a collegiate level for now or even as an educational minister for a church/denomination. I love the academy, but I love the application of academia more. No offense to the research lovers here! I'll buy your future books! Edited October 4, 2013 by RedDoor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacklunch Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 (edited) No idea how competitive your application is, but you def. should look at applying to more schools (as you said). For example, with BC, when I was there the NT doctoral students I knew (three) all had 4-5 yrs of master level work before coming in (most had MDiv+ThM, some MDiv+MTS/MAR). I imagine Emory is much of the same! See you're doing a ThM now, nvm! Edited October 4, 2013 by furtivemode RedDoor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDoor Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 No idea how competitive your application is, but you def. should look at applying to more schools (as you said). For example, with BC, when I was there the NT doctoral students I knew (three) all had 4-5 yrs of master level work before coming in (most had MDiv+ThM, some MDiv+MTS/MAR). I imagine Emory is much of the same! See you're doing a ThM now, nvm! Thanks for the help! In regards to the GRE, I'm still dreading it. I have no idea when I'll squeeze it in at this point, so I'm a bit anxious about it. However, when I spoke to my professors, they gave me a bit of advice. Admissions committees are looking for people who can prove they are scholars already either by independent research or recommendations. They are not looking for people that they have to make into scholars, i.e. great students but not great scholars. Granted, this may be from a UK PhD point of view (the prof went to Aberdeen and is a bit biased towards the UK), but he was very reassuring about my GPA (since it is lower than I would like it to be). So chin up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacklunch Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 Sounds like a UK program. I think it may even be the opposite here in the states. If one is already a "scholar" before showing up, they may wonder what the point is at all in coming to study. Though, again, for programs that basically have a dissertation this makes sense. I, for one, am terrified of those types of programs. I can't imagine, even in my fourth year of master's work, having to write a dissertation at this point. I guess they breed em different (i.e. better) across the pond! sacklunch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuriakos Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Thanks everyone for your input. I really appreciate it! After talking to a few new students at various institutions and my current profs, I'm focusing my UK schools down to St. Andrews. In the US, the only other school I might be interested in aside from BC and Emory would be Baylor. EDIT: Have M.Div, current Th.M. student. Any other recommendations would be great. I'm honestly okay with 2nd tier or even lower schools mainly because I'm looking to teach at a collegiate level for now or even as an educational minister for a church/denomination. I love the academy, but I love the application of academia more. No offense to the research lovers here! I'll buy your future books! If you have Baylor questions, shoot me a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seroteamavi Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Agreed 100%. I am mostly worried about my GRE score. I am retaking this coming Monday, but man, I just don't think I can pull a 90%+ verbal. I now have an 87%, which I am actually OK with....but you know how it goes. People say "OH you only have THAT score?" I would add from my experience that writing a statement of purpose is like writing poetry to a girl who you are pretty sure has never noticed you before and who has a lengthy history of spurning poetry from better-looking guys. Perfect agony. Is death preferable to writing nearly a dozen such statements? Perhaps. Yetanotherdegree and cadences 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacklunch Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 I would add from my experience that writing a statement of purpose is like writing poetry to a girl who you are pretty sure has never noticed you before and who has a lengthy history of spurning poetry from better-looking guys. Perfect agony. Is death preferable to writing nearly a dozen such statements? Perhaps. Haha! So true...I have a couple working drafts for different programs and I dare not say how long that took me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBIGrad Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 And yet, I must tell that girl how I feel! I must have her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awells27 Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Applying: U Penn Hebrew Union Rice SMU Dedman UCLA GTU/Berkely Denver/Iliff Emohasis: Early Judaism/Christian origins GRE over, preparing writing sample/SOP Requesting transcripts this week Body Politics 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Body Politics Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Best of luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-612 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I'm feeling pretty abysmal about my chances--but I guess I'm my own toughest critic. Part of the reason is that I'm interested in studying queer theology and the intersections of religion, gender, sexuality and violence but I can't find many second- or third-tier programs. All of the programs I'm aware of that offer resources for research like this are at Harvard, Yale, Vanderbilt, etc. Le sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Body Politics Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Have you asked any of your professors from your MDiv for suggestions re: second- and third-tier schools that could support your interests? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacklunch Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 I'm feeling pretty abysmal about my chances--but I guess I'm my own toughest critic. Part of the reason is that I'm interested in studying queer theology and the intersections of religion, gender, sexuality and violence but I can't find many second- or third-tier programs. All of the programs I'm aware of that offer resources for research like this are at Harvard, Yale, Vanderbilt, etc. Le sigh. I suppose on the flip side there may not be as many applicants for this field? I haven't met a ton of people who are interested in those issues at the doctoral level. Speaking of, Body Politics, one of my old friends is a doctoral student at Iliff studying sexual ethics. They might have something for you there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Body Politics Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Ha! Who's your friend? (You can PM me that if you don't want to drop them publicly.) And yes, I agree. I think DU/Iliff would have resources for besixdouze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marXian Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I'm feeling pretty abysmal about my chances--but I guess I'm my own toughest critic. Part of the reason is that I'm interested in studying queer theology and the intersections of religion, gender, sexuality and violence but I can't find many second- or third-tier programs. All of the programs I'm aware of that offer resources for research like this are at Harvard, Yale, Vanderbilt, etc. Le sigh. besixdouze, has someone mentioned Drew? Catherine Keller is someone who might be of interest to you. You could also easily do something in those areas at Claremont Graduate University. Bear in mind that you don't need to find POIs who meet every single one of those criteria. You actually probably don't want to study under someone who is doing the exact same thing you're interested in doing (some might disagree.) I think it's good to study under someone who is going to stretch you, not someone who wants to clone him or herself in you. Your interests would fit in programs that have a "theology and ethics," "theology and society," "theology and culture," "philosophical theology," "religion, ethics, society," etc. Chicago Theological Seminary definitely has people who do work in those areas (Ted Jennings comes to mind.) Also remember: EVERYONE feels terrible about his or her chances. But you will sabotage yourself if you focus on that. Seek out confidence. Talk to professors at your school who like you about your interests and SOP. If you have friends already working on a Ph.D, talk to them. Getting positive responses from POIs is helpful for this too (just make sure to take negative responses with a grain of salt.) Do whatever you can to build some confidence for yourself, and this process will be somewhat bearable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MsBOOM Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Is anyone being bogged down by the "you're not smart enough, your GPA isn't high enough, you'll blow the GRE, what, what, what are you doing?" goblin? That's where I am at the moment. I'm reading books by my POIs so I can better cater my statement of purpose towards them but still... can't imagine who'd want little old me. I'm going through this right now... I have terrible, terrible GRE scores (where it's straight out terrible, this is a fact, not an opinion of humility or modesty), and I am banking so hard on the rest of my application. There's no reason for me to retake the GRE, because I'll do even worse this go around. I have no hope when it comes to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacklunch Posted October 7, 2013 Author Share Posted October 7, 2013 Damn GRE....if it makes you feel better there are quite a few of us that have shoddy scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-612 Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 (edited) I actually emailed Catherine Keller yesterday to see if she was accepting. Drew is #1 on my list, as I am closer to a process theologian than a systematic one. I'm also looking at Claremont due to their center for process studies. Does anyone know how competitive those programs are? My GPA isn't stellar and I'm not confident about my GRE, so I'm hoping to lean on my sample, recs and SoP. And really? Duke has a good sexuality program? Most of the stories I heard had it as pretty unfriendly toward LGBTQ folk. I know powerhouse Hauerwas still gets pretty fidgety and tries to beat around the bush about it. I'd love to hear more. Edited October 7, 2013 by besixdouze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuriakos Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I actually emailed Catherine Keller yesterday to see if she was accepting. Drew is #1 on my list, as I am closer to a process theologian than a systematic one. I'm also looking at Claremont due to their center for process studies. Does anyone know how competitive those programs are? My GPA isn't stellar and I'm not confident about my GRE, so I'm hoping to lean on my sample, recs and SoP. And really? Duke has a good sexuality program? Most of the stories I heard had it as pretty unfriendly toward LGBTQ folk. I know powerhouse Hauerwas still gets pretty fidgety and tries to beat around the bush about it. I'd love to hear more. Since Claremont usually doesn't fully fund (lots of students get 50% tuition IIRC) it is a bit less competitive than other programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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