If you get in next year, how old will you be when you start your PhD?

[qberta]

i'll be 31, which seems just about right to me. i've never been one for straight lines.

[rising_star]

I'll be 23, but will turn 24 during my first semester. It's a good timeline for me because that means completing the program before I'm 30. I'd like to get married around that time (hopefully to the guy I'm with now) and would like to have kids before I'm too old but after I, hopefully, have an academic appointment somewhere.

Totally OT but elsewhere, it's been debated and discussed about when is the appropriate time to have children. Many female academics think grad school is a better time because your schedule is more flexible than it will be once you get an academic appointment.

[coyabean]

Totally OT but elsewhere, it's been debated and discussed about when is the appropriate time to have children. Many female academics think grad school is a better time because your schedule is more flexible than it will be once you get an academic appointment.

I have considered this. It seems to me that if you are somewhere with decent health care that this could be a pretty good time. And for me, the last of times.

[peppermint.beatnik]

Totally OT but elsewhere, it's been debated and discussed about when is the appropriate time to have children. Many female academics think grad school is a better time because your schedule is more flexible than it will be once you get an academic appointment.

I've heard this many times, but I never quite understood the logic. I don't think I could do it.

Let's say you become pregnant when you're ABD, and you are one of those people that can finish their dissertation in 6 months (btw-it's not common in humanities/social science), which you write during your mostly delightful pregnancy (which doesn't always happen either). By the time the baby comes, you only have to defend/look for jobs.

If this happens, super, but I don't think it goes down like that too often.

At least if you have the baby when you've got a job, you're not preoccupied with the possibility that you may not get a job because you are too distracted with your motherly duties to finish your dissertation.

I have six nieces and nephews and I don't know how I could have a 1-3 year old in grad school. But, everyone's different.

[rising_star]

Have you talked to female faculty members, particularly those in the first two years, about the pressures on their time? You have to publish your dissertation, teach 2-4 courses per semester, get new research started, advise/mentor undergraduate students, and serve on departmental and university committees. You definitely don't have to do all of that as a graduate student... And that's before even considering that your tenure clock starts as soon as you accept the job. You have 6 years, period. Whereas as a graduate student, you could take a semester off or delay graduation by a semester or a year if you need to. Not going to happen as faculty. At best, you'll get a course release, but that won't absolve you of your other responsibilities, the least of which will be turning that dissertation into articles or a book.

[peppermint.beatnik]

Have you talked to female faculty members, particularly those in the first two years, about the pressures on their time? You have to publish your dissertation, teach 2-4 courses per semester, get new research started, advise/mentor undergraduate students, and serve on departmental and university committees. You definitely don't have to do all of that as a graduate student... And that's before even considering that your tenure clock starts as soon as you accept the job. You have 6 years, period. Whereas as a graduate student, you could take a semester off or delay graduation by a semester or a year if you need to. Not going to happen as faculty. At best, you'll get a course release, but that won't absolve you of your other responsibilities, the least of which will be turning that dissertation into articles or a book.

Yes, you're right about that. I meant after you get tenure, sorry.

[rising_star]

Yes, you're right about that. I meant after you get tenure, sorry.

For many, it's really not feasible to wait that long. Let's say you start a PhD straight out of undergrad at the age of 22. It'll take 5-7 years to finish, so let's say 28. Then 6-7 years for tenure, so 34 before you have your first child. Waiting that long would definitely make it difficult to have more than one child, and that's ignoring the fact that you still have to do all the pre-tenure things after tenure if you expect to be promoted. And, I totally took the best case scenario where you get a tenure-track job you like as soon as you finish the PhD, without doing a post-doc or visiting professor or lecturer position somewhere for a year or two. If you take any time off before starting or are a postdoc or VAP, add 2-3 years to that 34 which makes it 36-37.

[mudlark]

Very nicely stated, Rising_Star. I'm thinking about trying to get pregnant next year for the reasons you mentioned.

The realization that things are only going to get more difficult after grad school has been really helpful for me in terms of stress and time management. If I can't be happy with my life now, when I have tons of flexibility, no teaching, and few looming deadlines, how am I going to be happy if I'm lucky enough to get on the tenure track? For me, thinking about my student life as the new normal instead of a tough period to grit my teeth through has made a world of difference. I make sure to spend time with my husband, take breaks, and do non-school things.

And just so this isn't going way off the rails, I was 22 when I started my MA and 24 when I started my PhD. My husband is quite a bit older than me, though, so if I waited until I had tenure to have kids, he'd be... um... fifty. I'd like to have time post-kids and pre-old age with him.

ETA- not that fifty is old age, of course. But fifty plus the twenty or more years it would take to get two kids out of the house, and we're getting into elderly territory.

Edited January 26, 2010 by mudlark

[LifeIsGood]

Just a quick financial note to help with the planning: Daycare is really expensive. By the time I start the PhD (if I get in), my youngest child will be in kindergarten, saving us $500 a month. Last year, both little ones were in still daycare, so double that. And that's inexpensive compared to what it costs in most parts of the country. Just something to think about when trying to plan for a grad student stipend. Universities are starting to offer assistance with daycare (like Princeton), but its not very common and their on-site childcare facilities tend to have years-long waiting lists.

[genotype]

Just a quick financial note to help with the planning: Daycare is really expensive. By the time I start the PhD (if I get in), my youngest child will be in kindergarten, saving us $500 a month. Last year, both little ones were in still daycare, so double that. And that's inexpensive compared to what it costs in most parts of the country. Just something to think about when trying to plan for a grad student stipend. Universities are starting to offer assistance with daycare (like Princeton), but its not very common and their on-site childcare facilities tend to have years-long waiting lists.

Just wanted to second that. I waited to apply until at least one of my kids was out of daycare (and my youngest only has one year to go). In New York, a decent day care facility costs about $1000 a month, per child. Definitely something to keep in mind.

[red_crayons]

Just a quick financial note to help with the planning: Daycare is really expensive. By the time I start the PhD (if I get in), my youngest child will be in kindergarten, saving us $500 a month. Last year, both little ones were in still daycare, so double that. And that's inexpensive compared to what it costs in most parts of the country. Just something to think about when trying to plan for a grad student stipend. Universities are starting to offer assistance with daycare (like Princeton), but its not very common and their on-site childcare facilities tend to have years-long waiting lists.

True story. Thanks for bringing it up.

One of the big plusses to the academic life, though, is that you have a lot more control over your time. I struggle with this immensely now that I'm working. Feeling trapped by other peoples' arbitrary ideas about when I need to be in the office leads to a lot of panic attacks and puts me in situations that lead to frequent physical illness (which then negatively impacts my work!). I would like to work 30 hours a week so that I could feel a little more in control of things, but you have to take what you can get these days.

As an academic, if I'm feeling sick every morning from being pregnant, I don't have to be at my office at 9, if I plan things right. If I don't get a wink of sleep, I teach my 1 or 2 classes or go to a faculty meeting and go home to sleep. I move class to another day. I call up my colleagues to reschedule whatever nominally important project meeting I may have. I skip a conference when I get the flu, since I'm probably going for my own edification and the free booze anyway. I send my boyfriend to the library to get me a pile of books so I can do research for a paper at home (which I know I can do - studying while ill is my specialty!).

It really comes down to the fact that in academia I probably won't have someone writing a bad review that gets me fired at the end of the year because I had a hard time sitting my butt in my chair every morning at 8:30 am. Of course, that can vary by school/program/discipline, but I think this is a fair assessment, generally speaking.

There are expectations of end results in academia - teaching, publishing, presenting - and often long hours, but there is unparalleled freedom in how you allocate the time needed to reach those results. This is maybe something people who have stayed in academics since undergrad don't fully appreciate. I'm not trying to be smug, but I didn't realize that until about 2.5 years into working, when I finally had to make the jump from 30 to 40 hour workweeks. I jumped at the chance to work from 8-noon and then 4-8pm this semester because even though I am at work for almost 12 hours total, I can go to the gym and actually sit down for lunch in the middle. It's long, I'm getting paid the same amount, but I feel so much more positive because I have some freedom with my day!

THAT is why having a baby during grad school is so incredibly appealing to me.

[peppermint.beatnik]

For many, it's really not feasible to wait that long. Let's say you start a PhD straight out of undergrad at the age of 22. It'll take 5-7 years to finish, so let's say 28. Then 6-7 years for tenure, so 34 before you have your first child. Waiting that long would definitely make it difficult to have more than one child, and that's ignoring the fact that you still have to do all the pre-tenure things after tenure if you expect to be promoted. And, I totally took the best case scenario where you get a tenure-track job you like as soon as you finish the PhD, without doing a post-doc or visiting professor or lecturer position somewhere for a year or two. If you take any time off before starting or are a postdoc or VAP, add 2-3 years to that 34 which makes it 36-37.

I'm not disagreeing with the points you make, they're totally valid. The way I phrased my original post was meant to convey that I understand many think grad school is a good time to start having children, but I can't see it working for me.

Like anything, my perception is based on my experience. My experience has led me to the conclusion that I won't start a family in grad school. Of course if I become pregnant, I'd make it work, but it's the way I want to do it.

I'm 28. I have an MA. I want to get in and out of a PhD in 4-5 years (yes, I have thought about things that may delay this). I only want 1 or 2 kids. If this means I'm late 30s, by the time I have a child, I'm OK with that. I've discussed thus with my partner (already in academia) and he's supportive.

I think a good time to have children is when you think you can make it work.

[moralresearcher]

In some ways, maybe getting a BA in 3 years could be seen as a positive thing. Perhaps it will give admissions committees the impression they won't have to fund us for as long!

Good spin!

[NEPA]

If I get accepted and start this fall, I'll have just turned 22. I'm happy that I'll hopefully finish by the time I turn 30. But that's just me. I totally agree with the posters who've said that age really shouldn't be a factor. Life experience prior to entering a Ph.D. program (or, for that matter, time spent actually in the Ph.D. program prior to getting an academic appointment or other job) is only time wasted if you choose to waste it; based on how impressed I've been by the posters on TheGradCafe, I doubt that any of you did!

[Smaudge]

Next Fall I'll be 24.

On the having kids topic, I always thought I'd have my first around 28 which should be during research/dissertation time. However, was anyone thinking of more than one kid? How detrimental is it to take time off between graduating with a PhD and starting to teach if I want to start a family? I mean, I want to be a professor as my career and this is important to me. However, I don't want to miss out on my dream of having a decent sized family either.

Are there things (for the Social Sciences) that I can do in between graduating and teaching that are flexible enough for me to also do the multiple kids thing?

[waytooold]

I will be twice the age of some of you, and significantly older than anyone has previously posted. I have had an incredible career and believe I can make unique contributions to my field, continuing my research and writing and hopefully teaching. My children are grown, I have everything to give and nothing to distract me. The reality is, however, that most programs will pass on me because they seek acolytes or those looking exclusively for entry-level tenure track positions. It really is one of the last bastions of age discrimination, and in my visits with faculty was sometimes so overt I nearly fell out of my chair, particularly since my field involves deep familiarity with civil rights laws! Nevertheless, I am hoping someone will find me sufficiently different from other applicants they will give me a go.

Also, a comment on the whole "life experience" thing. I believe there are advantages one brings to the table with a lot of life experience-- probably more patience, a certain degree of scope and context and self-awareness, however I believe that youth has it's advantages as well -- passion, energy and reality testing are probably real virtues that a younger person would have in greater volume than someone further along in their development.

Cheers.

Edited January 31, 2010 by waytooold

[eikko]

I'll be 23 if I get in and from where I come from (Europe) that's considered old.

I don't know about France, but this doesn't apply to all of Europe-- definitely not the university I go to in Sweden! Very few people go straight from high school graduation (18/19) into a university program. The people in my MA program, 2nd year, are 25-30, and several (most?) PhD students are in their 30s.

I'm sure it varies by department, university, and so on.

Anyway I will be 25 next fall, when I might start a PhD!

[chemdoc]

After 2 undergraduate degrees, I will be 26 when I begin a PhD program in the Fall of 2010. I have received acceptances but am in the process of deciding where to go.

[herself the elf]

THAT is why having a baby during grad school is so incredibly appealing to me.

A family member of mine decided to have both of her children during grad school, she had the first one right after her 2nd or 3rd year exams, and she highly recommends it. As she used to say, "I just strap him on, and go straight to the library!" Of course not all babies are so docile to be carried around all day strapped to their mother's chest, but it worked for her.

Her research was focused in Brazil, and she went there for 3 straight summers ('06-'08). The first summer, with no baby yet, she researched and learned as much Portuguese as possible; the second and third summers she took her baby along! Her husband stayed back in the US and came to visit for about 3 weeks in the middle of each summer. She lived and researched in Rio, not a place known to be the safest, and she was absolutely completely fine with the whole thing, it was like nothing to her to take her (nearly) newborn baby along. She and a colleague that she had met the first summer jointly hired a Brazilian nanny for daycare. Granted, she wasn't researching in a favella, but still I think it is pretty remarkable.

She is neither crazy nor abnormally brave! She really convinced me that (for me) it would be waaaay easier to have a baby in grad school than when I'm working. I think the flexibility of one's schedule as well as the ability to do a lot of work from home makes it ideal. So that's why it's my plan, too.

Thanks for bringing up this subject, it is something I think about a lot, and it is really nice to read about others points of view and just to know that others are in the same boat. (btw, starting Fall 2010 at age 30).

[jeanne]

I finished undergrad at 22 (BA and BMus), finished my master's (while working) at 25, and am currently 28. I'll be 29 by the time I start in the fall. I was worried about being "too old" so I asked a few students what they thought about it when I was at a visitation. They said I looked 23...I took that as a compliment. Still, I wouldn't have done it any other way. Between my masters and now I took a year to prep for med school applications, then apply before realizing I didn't want to do that. I'm sure that being a little older gives me a much better idea of what I really want in life. Plus the fact that I'm leaving a tenured position (elementary school science coordinator) shows potential programs that I am really serious.

All this baby talk is making me more anxious than I already am. I'm 28, single, and about to be a poor student for 5 - 6 years. There'd better be some attractive, available men in my department! Haha.

[geichat]

im applying straight out of undergrad this year, and will be 23 when i start in the fall (bday in sep.). the thing is, i've always felt a little older than people i go to school with since most of them are 21/22 when they get out of college. this is prob the first time i've felt younger than the rest of the cohort. however, like another poster said previously, i've been trying very hard not to center the conversations on my age/working experience etc., simply because it makes me feel immature/inexperienced/not knowing whats going on, etc. not sure how the professors see this, i've been assured by my potential mentor at one school that although i'll be competing with people whose CVs could get them a faculty position, i should rest assured that i am not at a disadvantage simply because i am still in college. they look more at potential rather than simply comparing CVs and experience.

That certainly made me feel better, but still, going to interview weekends where most people are so much more experienced than i am still makes me feel (at least slightly) out of place in college i've always felt like im the mature one among my peers and friends, but now its suddently switched. feel like people are only involving me in their conversations about their stressful careers (and many many more) only to be polite, not like i have anything to contribute to those discussions...

[flgirl]

If I get accepted for this coming fall, I'll be 24 when I start. I graduated from UG two years ago, and had a son in my last semester. I definitely want more kids, and would definitely have them in grad school -- I finished my UG honors thesis and seminars with a newborn in my arms, and I say that's a heck of a lot better than leaving him with a babysitter while I go to a 9-to-5. I am sure that grad school will be more demanding than UG was, but it's better than the idea of having only 6-12 weeks to bond with my new baby during unpaid maternity leave.

[mlle]

If I get accepted for this coming fall, I'll be 24 when I start. I graduated from UG two years ago, and had a son in my last semester. I definitely want more kids, and would definitely have them in grad school -- I finished my UG honors thesis and seminars with a newborn in my arms, and I say that's a heck of a lot better than leaving him with a babysitter while I go to a 9-to-5. I am sure that grad school will be more demanding than UG was, but it's better than the idea of having only 6-12 weeks to bond with my new baby during unpaid maternity leave.

Oh, don't get all bitter about what I said in the other thread, pol--don't take it that way. I don't think it's a bad thing to have kids while you're a student, or when you're in UG for that matter. I was speaking for myself that it would've been a disaster for everyone if I were to have kids while I was still young (I'm a couple of years older than you and it would still be a disaster at this point, but I'm a miserable wreck). But I'm taking the thread off-topic; carry on with your discussion, folks.

Edited February 6, 2010 by mlle

[juror#1]

I will be 22 and straight out of undergrad when I start in the fall.

As for the having kids debate...I know I told my fiance that it is not an option for at least the first two years so we can save money and get used to the lifestyle. But, without details, medically I have a slim chance of even having kids and I want them so I want to have at least one in grad school before it is too late. I personally don't think there is a right answer to the baby debate, it all depends on the individuals involved and what they know they can handle.

[yinyangwriter]

28 now, 29 next month, and still 29 when I start grad school in the Fall. I'll should be 34 when I finish and then 35 after postdoc and about 38 or 39 when I get tenure...should I decide to go into academia after getting my PhD. :-)