JDD
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Everything posted by JDD
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I try not to bring up PTS a lot - as it might make me look like a homer - but it sounds ideal for someone with your interests. In terms of funding, it's very hard to beat: 100% if you're PCUSA (or "convert" to PCUSA) and 80% for everyone else. This is primarily true of the M.Div, but I've seen it apply to MATS and MA folks too. It sounds like you've visited and didn't hate Princeton, so there's that. In terms of research interests, you would be in good hands for, "foundational training in theology, but also moral and social philosophy and a school where I can be introductory trained in some of the social sciences." PTS does a decent job of integrating theological formation into most classes (but almost exclusively reformed theology) and it has recently made a few hires of individuals with backgrounds in sociology (Mooney), cultural anthropology (Raffety), and psychology of religion (Hinds). There is always the possibility of taking classes in the social sciences at the university, but this is not nearly as easy as doing the same thing from within a university. In terms of a specific interest in decolonial or womanist studies, PTS has some solid individuals, but you won't find the same level of resources as a place like Yale. I would also suggest Harvard and UChicago, specifically for their inter-disciplinary benefits as major universities. I can't speak to their their theological formation.
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@xypathos This is very very helpful - thank you. I believe I have brought a ministry question to an academic board, and that is my own fault. I hope I haven’t belittled those gunning for tenure-track academic positions. It is a noble task, but it isn’t for me and so I don’t feel as though my schooling should be indentical to theirs.
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@sacklunch Thanks for the input - but my concern is that the D.Min programs that would prepare me for the pastorate aren’t sufficient credentials to land even an adjunct position at a small Christian school. Am I wrong? Should I not try to have my cake and eat it too? From the advice here, I’m left to believe that - regardless of my professional aspirations - the best option is to attend the most academically competitive program in admitted to. At the very least, this would leave open the possibility for work at a university, and my church would probably make do either way.
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Thanks for the input, all! @dmueller0711 Very insightful questions, I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Concerning cost of attendance, I wouldn't be willing to take out loans of any type for any PhD program, UK or US. To your point, it simply doesn't make sense to attend an inferior program when superior programs are free. This means that I'd either depend on scholarships, denominational support, or my wife's income. Still, this is a very important point of consideration. In terms of D.Min vs. PhD - I am certainly open to the D.Min, however, as you implied there aren't many academically rigorous D.Min's out there that would put me in consideration for even adjunct positions. My impression is that only homiletics/pastoral-care/formation faculty are qualified with D.Mins and that isn't even true of all schools. Moreover, those aren't the fields I hope to go into. I believe I was unclear about my academic career goals before. My hope is to go into a small Christian university setting for the purpose of supplementing my income as a pastor. I don't really care about being published or taking on research, nor do I have any illusions of getting a tenure-track position. Adjunct is fine, so long as the pay is adequate. I just really love to teach and interact with students. Because one cannot assume they will be successful even with a top tier US PhD, it feels a bit futile trying to compete with the most competitive applicants in the world for admission to a program that may or may not be of genuine benefit to my career. If I decide not to apply to UK schools, I'll probably focus much of my effort on schools (derogatorily referred to as second tier) like Baylor, SMU, TCU etc. considering I'd like to move back to my home state for school if it makes no difference to those hiring - seeing as how "if you're not first [tier] you're last"
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Hello friends, As I begin to research possible paths for PhD studies in New Testament or Christian Ethics - the 3 year programs offered by Oxford and Cambridge grow more and more appealing. Before I go any further, I'd like to state the common drawbacks mentioned frequently on this forum: UK Phd's are less respected and therefore less helpful in landing a tenure-track job at a large institution in the US UK PhD's are shorter because they offer less support/oversight in the dissertation process and because they generally don't require candidates to teach or assist in teaching Uk PhD's are predatory toward US students who can take out federal loans to finance their education, this also has the effect of "lowering the bar" in terms of competition to get accepted UK PhD's are often within divinity schools that skew conservative, which could have adverse effects on one's dissertation Please feel free to add to this list, as relevant. With that out of the way, I'd like to know which American students a UK PhD is right for. I am a moderate, pastoral minded student who would be equally happy in parish ministry as a small Christian college. Basically, I have no desire to seek out a tenure-track position at an elite university. Realistically, I'd teach part time at a small university and pastor a church full time in addition. Does this make me an eligible candidate for PhD studies in a place like Cambridge or Oxford? Also - are there any major differences between these two programs that I should be aware of?
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Princeton Theological Seminary vs Duke Divinity School for Later PhD Work
JDD replied to vineyard_guy111's topic in Religion
What @sacklunch said.- 6 replies
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Princeton Theological Seminary vs Duke Divinity School for Later PhD Work
JDD replied to vineyard_guy111's topic in Religion
Speaking as a current M.Div student at PTS who plans to pursue PhD work, I would advise that you go to Duke if your aspirations lie solely in the academy. At the end of the day, PTS is a seminary that focuses on preparing pastors. While the faculty are top notch in almost every field, most of them understand their job is to equip future ministers, not academics. To Xypathos’ point, it’s less about PTS being inadequate preparation and more about Duke being a widely recognized T1 school. I cant speak for Duke but I would imagine they are less concerned with pastoral formation. My main qualifier is this: you generally increase the odds of being accepted to a given PhD program by attending that school for your masters. So if you’re priority school for PhD work is PTS or even PU, then the masters at PTS seems worth it. Otherwise, Duke seems to better fit your interests.- 6 replies
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@Simbbo I spoke with someone who interviewed last week and they were left with the impression that decisions would be released within the next 2 weeks.
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@KA.DINGER.RA I agree partially that moving from M.Div into a TT phd is not always possible, but I have found that it depends on one’s concentration and/or dissertation topic. A glance through the phd candidates at top programs will show that at least 50% have only one M* degree. All that to say, it appears to be worth applying to phd programs after your first M* if you have a firm grasp on what it will take to be successful in your concentration.
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@newcement At the end of the day, PTS is still a PCUSA seminary required to prepare students for the ordination exam. Because of this, there are a lot of opportunities to take classes pass/fail to satisfy denomination or - in this case - presbytery requirements for ordination, withought having to worry about one’s GPA. Summer languages appear to be the epitome of “I’m only doing it because my presbytery requires it for ordination, so I am just getting it over with.” This is by no means true for every student who takes summer language, however, your chances of succeeding in acquiring the language and moving on toward exegesis classes are better if you’re willing to take the full year intro. Unless you are super ambitious and aim to take upper level classes is Greek, Hebrew, and then maybe Latin, French, and German at the university, there is no reason to do the summer language. But take a close look at your program’s specific credit requirements and ensure you will have time to do all that you want for PhD preparation.
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@newcement I'm currently at PTS in the M.Div - depending on your reasons for taking a language, you may want to refrain from taking the summer session. For example, if you're only taking Greek/Hebrew to satisfy an ordination requirement that allows you to do pass/fail, then go ahead and do it. If you are doing it because you plan to pursue a PhD in biblical studies, I would not recommend taking it in the summer - that is, unless you're coming in with some previous language experience.
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So it sounds like the concentration, at least in religious studies departments, is a catch all. Good to know and thanks for everyone's contributions. If any current PhD students happen to see this - please feel free to weigh in.
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It goes by different names, but most schools call it Religion and Modernity. My question is: how does one prepare for Ph.D studies in this concentration? Does each school have its own list of requirements? Whereas biblical studies or history programs have very clear-cut guidelines, it appears as though this field is a free-for-all. I'm wondering how I might best orient my Masters studies to increase my chances of attending a TT Ph.D for Religion and Modernity. Any advice?
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Hey @Adelei For an M.Div, most programs (basically none but Harvard) don't even require a GRE score. Every single school I applied to last season only required some essays and recommendation letters. As for a JD/M.Div dual degree program - check out Yale. I looked into it for similar reasons. It is obviously no easy task getting into Yale Law, but they have a proven track record of students earning their JD and M.Div simultaneously. So, unless you are really committed to Harvard, you shouldn't have to worry about taking a GRE until you're ready to apply for Ph.D programs - if in fact that is something you want to do.
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@SemperDiscentes I don't think anyone has addressed your chances of being accepted into these schools. From my application experience this past season (2018/19), I believe you have excellent chances of getting into every school listed. Moreover, I think you stand to receive at least partial scholarships from most of these institutions. I graduated from a no-name state college with a degree in an unrelated field and got into the schools I was interested in. On paper, you appear much more qualified. As for any anti-conservative bias in admissions - this is either negligible or non-existent at the M* level. In my interviews and admissions essays, I was pretty honest about my southern-evangelical background and intent to go back into that tradition and, again, I can't point to a single instance in which that info was used against me. Now, PhD admissions could be entirely different and getting a job post PhD almost certainly involves overt politics - but that doesn't appear to be something worth worrying about at this level. It sounds like you and I have similar interests and backgrounds - my list had the same priorities and requirements. 1. Yale 2. PTS 3. Duke 4. Fuller I eventually chose PTS for their MDiv program, so PM me if you want to discuss admissions further. Or better yet, find someone on here who has actually been through it already (@Rabbit Run?) .
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Thanks again for the advice. If I were to sum it up in no particular order, here is what the community recommends: Learn languages - at least 2 ancient and 2 modern (depending on one's concentration) Network effectively - begin talking to professors who can help craft an application/thesis/SOP/writing sample as early as possible Find ways to differentiate - take classes outside of your divinity school/seminary or participate in field studies/research Please let me know if I've missed anything. As an aside, is it normal for applicants to choose different concentrations at the different schools to which they apply for PhD studies? If so, how different should the writing sample/SOP be from one application to another?
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All very helpful tips so far. It sounds like my top two interests (American Religious History and Systematic Theology) require very different language prerequisites. I suppose it would be best to start with the standard language requirements in the M.Div program and then tailor further studies to my Ph.D program. @Rabbit Run - do you recommend taking classes at PU because of the networking opportunities or for some reason in particular? I'm interested to know how this would play into PhD applications.
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@marXian I'll be attending PTS for an M.Div in the fall. I haven't yet decided on a concentration for Ph.D.
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I know this is pretty late in the season - most are probably gone until the fall - but I am starting my M.Div this fall and currently plan on applying for TT PhD (specifically Yale/Duke) programs when the time comes. I want to appeal to current doctoral students to hear what they wish they had done during their M* to better their chances at getting into their program of choice. I'd love to hear from both sides - people who got into the program of their dreams and those who did not. Please take this as your chance to lecture a freshman!
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@thiscalltoarms You tell them which medium to use - I opted for both so that I could get a physical letter and all the swag that comes with it (a folder/pen/notebook/sticker). The portal they use is normally a day or two behind - so keep that in mind. If/when you are admitted, you actually have to go to a separate link/portal to respond to their offer - kind of confusing.
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@ChristoWitch87 is correct. I had very similar worries coming out of ungrad/into Masters application season. I graduated with a high GPA and decent credentials from a mid-tier state school. My UG degree wasn't even in the same field as religious studies. Still, I worked hard on my app, got quality LOR's and submitted before the priority deadline. I got into every school to which I applied (including 3 TT M.Div programs - all with plenty enough funding to attend). This was partially because acceptance rates for even the best Div schools hovers between 30-50%. Still, I don't believe that a mediocre GPA and sub-par resume would have served me as well. It sounds like you have a very good chance of being admitted, even with funding. From the looks of it, what you should really be worrying about is your path to a TT Ph.D program. That appears to be much more difficult.
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Accepted to Yale for M.Div - now go see if your decision has posted!
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I have a question for the anxious Ph.D hopefuls in this thread: how much does the reputation of the school where you earned your masters matter when it comes time to apply for Ph.D programs? Does a competitive masters program translate into significantly improved odds for admission into an elite Ph.D program? Does it have more to do with your professional resume/publications?
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At a time when church attendance is dwindling and there are fewer individuals pursuing a career in ministry, it baffles me why the UMC would make it so difficult to become ordained. Do you know why the threshold is so high?
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@maggers20 75% is amazing for Duke - you should be proud!