2018 venting thread

[nichts]

@EspritHabile Wonderful advice, thank you.

How to take advantage of the next few months seems like a good subject to broach with your program (or POI). They'll probably be able to tell you what students know coming in, and you can gauge what kind of support you'll receive there.

[LibraryLivingJT]

2 hours ago, E. Coronaria said:

I have imposter syndrome SO HARD right now. I reviewed the survey courses that TAs teach in the first year, saw that the same anthology was used across all the sections, and ordered it already to being studying it ASAP so my future students don’t suffer for all that I don’t know. 

I’m also reviewing some advanced grammar concepts so I can clearly articulate to my students why their writing is poor/ineffective. 

I will review Art and its Significance this summer (probably starting in June—the whole point is to be fresh on the topics in August). 

Surprisingly, no imposter syndrome yet! I do plan on reading A LOT this summer - I have many books on my shelf that I haven't had time to glance at yet due to adjuncting.

First on my list is Kendi's "Stamped from the Beginning" (a history of racism in the US), followed by some other texts along those lines.

[unicornsarereal]

13 minutes ago, LibraryLivingJT said:

Surprisingly, no imposter syndrome yet! I do plan on reading A LOT this summer - I have many books on my shelf that I haven't had time to glance at yet due to adjuncting.

First on my list is Kendi's "Stamped from the Beginning" (a history of racism in the US), followed by some other texts along those lines.

Would anyone be interested in making a forum for sharing books we plan to read before starting programs?

[jrockford27]

With regard to imposter syndrome, there is a relevant proverb from the Analects of Confucius (3.15):

"When [Confucius] went inside the Grand Temple, he asked questions about everything. [Later] Someone remarked, 'Who said that the son of the man from Tsou understood the rites? When he went inside the Grand Temple, he asked questions about everything!'

[Confucius], on hearing of this, said, 'The asking of questions is in itself the correct rite.'"

The whole Analects is actually really great reading for meditations on grad school, and on teaching when you come around to it.

Edited February 26, 2018 by jrockford27

[E. Coronaria]

@EspritHabile: I’m at work and I don’t have time to answer this in full at the moment. I’m always interested in advice from others. 

However, I believe that there is a difference between penalizing students with grammar and taking the time to explain how their writing doesn’t meet SAE. As a student disenfranchised by a poor, rural public high school, I can tell you first hand that  ignoring standardized grammar because we don’t want to be complicit DOESN’T do the student any favors. Job applications, internships, other college classes, and graduate school applications will hold them to that standard, and not providing the information is disenfranchising the student. You don’t have to beat a student down to provide information clearly and sensitively. 

Perhaps I didn’t articulate that carefully enough in my very informal post. I want to empower my students with information, not penalize them with it. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by E. Coronaria

[la_mod]

I’m feeling MAJOR impostor syndrome. There’s a google doc for people visiting Michigan and after some light googling, I’m shook to see that my prospectively future cohort is full of people with a ton of serious professional experience, extensive writing backgrounds, etc. I’m over here from my little state school like “hi, I started a semi-successful club but that’s pretty much it” (and it’s not the only thing, but still!). This is made worse by the fact that I’ve never lived apart from my parents, had to move or drive in snow, don’t know what questions to ask POIs, and feel like a proper baby (I’m 21). Eek.

[Carly Rae Jepsen]

No word from a program I will visit very soon on the hotel room. I wish they at least let me know they are sending that info soon cause I need it to plan my visit better.

[la_mod]

49 minutes ago, unicornsarereal said:

Would anyone be interested in making a forum for sharing books we plan to read before starting programs?

YES

[E. Coronaria]

17 minutes ago, la_mod said:

I’m feeling MAJOR impostor syndrome. There’s a google doc for people visiting Michigan and after some light googling, I’m shook to see that my prospectively future cohort is full of people with a ton of serious professional experience, extensive writing backgrounds, etc. I’m over here from my little state school like “hi, I started a semi-successful club but that’s pretty much it” (and it’s not the only thing, but still!). This is made worse by the fact that I’ve never lived apart from my parents, had to move or drive in snow, don’t know what questions to ask POIs, and feel like a proper baby (I’m 21). Eek.

I’m 23 and I still feel like a baby. Honestly, I don’t even know you and you impress me. You are visiting Michigan because you deserve to be there! You’ll do fine without your parents (it’ll be scary at first but you can always call/text/Skype!) + you’ll learn to drive in the snow/ decide when it’s best to stay off the roads. 

[M(allthevowels)H]

4 hours ago, punctilious said:

Imposter syndrome is settling in a bit for my husband. He’s afraid he doesn’t have a strong enough theory background. I’ve been saying that no one is going to know everything going into their PhD—that’s why you have years worth of coursework before the dissertation even starts!

Anyone else feeling similarly? Any sage words of advice? Is anyone using the summer before the PhD to get caught up in areas you feel are your weak points? 

Whoop whoop! Impostering so hard I'm expecting to see Scooby Doo and his friends waiting to unmask me at my first campus visit. I have no advice, only the solid expectation that we will both get through this.

 

 

@E. Coronaria I see what you're saying re: dangers of ignoring grammar. But like @EspritHabile I also have abandoned a rule and recitation based grammar (I teaching writing exclusively). Retention for recitation-based grammar lessons are iffy. It takes a year+ for something "sink in." Coming at grammar as it arises through the articulation of ideas is just a more effective way (for me) to introduce these elements. That way the class is geared toward the generation and clarification of ideas and opinions and grammar is a vehicle to make that possible - rather than a more abstract goal of learning X rules or demonstrating command of them. It's almost more valuable to teach academic speech as translation work or code switching, rather than presenting Academic English as an infallible standard. I don't think this is a disservice to students because a student who knows how to think critically and organize those thoughts is far more competitive than one whose only memorized Strunk and White.

Mina Shaughnessy has a pretty cool essay that talks about how a flawed relationship between teacher and students is the "converting the nonbeliever" model - where one party has all of the information and the other party can only offer obedience. It's much easier - and more successful - to work from a place where both sides respect the sophistication of the other - partners on a journey whose destination both parties want to reach. If that makes sense. She put it better, probably. But working through essays together and using specific grammar rules as they come up presents these things as tools to aid in the larger and more important journey of students expressing themselves, rather than a test or quiz they're going to fail.

Edited February 26, 2018 by M(allthevowels)H
Irony

[E. Coronaria]

22 minutes ago, M(allthevowels)H said:

 

@E. Coronaria I see what you're saying re: dangers of ignoring grammar. But like @EspritHabile I also have abandoned a rule and recitation based grammar (I teaching writing exclusively). Retention for recitation-based grammar lessons are iffy. It takes a year+ for something "sink in." Coming at grammar as it arises through the articulation of ideas is just a more effective way (for me) to introduce these elements. That way the class is geared toward the generation and clarification of ideas and opinions and grammar is a vehicle to make that possible - rather than a more abstract goal of learning X rules or demonstrating command of them. It's almost more valuable to teach academic speech as translation work or code switching, rather than presenting Academic English as an infallible standard. I don't think this is a disservice to students because a student who knows how to think critically and organize those thoughts is far more competitive than one whose only memorized Strunk and White.

Mina Shaughnessy has a pretty cool essay that talks about how a flawed relationship between teacher and students is the "converting the nonbeliever" model - where one party has all of the information and the other party can only offer obedience. It's much easier - and more successful - to work from a place where both sides respect the sophistication of the other - partners on a journey whose destination both parties want to reach. If that makes sense. She put it better, probably. But working through essays together and using specific grammar rules as they come up presents these things as tools to aid in the larger and more important journey of students expressing themselves, rather than a test or quiz they're going to fail.

Hi! Couple of misunderstandings: first, I am talking about addressing grammatical issues as they arise in the students’ writing. I’m not suggesting that I stand up in front of a class and drive everyone to sleep with the recitation of grammar rules. Second, I never suggested that SAE was infallible. But the basic components are still required for success after graduation. I think it’s incredibly wrong to withhold “the code” from people who have never been given access to “the code,” even if I don’t agree with how it has been used in racist/classist ways. They can’t go to the writing center— nobody there will address it. How are they supposed to learn about their split infinitives, passive voice, and comma splices unless someone gently explains it to them when it appears on their papers? Third, and most crucially, I NEVER suggested that I would be lording over my classroom as the only one who could offer anything. My original post said that I would be reviewing some grammatical concepts so I could clearly articulate them to my students as they came up in their writing. It’s almost like you didn’t even read my post. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by E. Coronaria
On phone, terrible typing

[punctilious]

Happy venting!

Our CFO has given the go ahead for me to work remotely! That means I get to keep my job! I'M SO HAPPY!

[la_mod]

3 minutes ago, punctilious said:

Happy venting!

Our CFO has given the go ahead for me to work remotely! That means I get to keep my job! I'M SO HAPPY!

Ah! How exciting! Congrats!

[M(allthevowels)H]

1 hour ago, E. Coronaria said:

Hi! Couple of misunderstandings: first, I am talking about addressing grammatical issues as they arise in the students’ writing. I’m not suggesting that I stand up in front of a class and drive everyone to sleep with the recitation of grammar rules. Second, I never suggested that SAE was infallible. But the basic components are still required for success after graduation. I think it’s incredibly wrong to withhold “the code” from people who have never been given access to “the code,” even if I don’t agree with how it has been used in racist/classist ways. They can’t go to the writing center— nobody there will address it. How are they supposed to learn about their split infinitives, passive voice, and comma splices unless someone gently explains it to them when it appears on their papers? Third, and most crucially, I NEVER suggested that I would be lording over my classroom as the only one who could offer anything. My original post said that I would be reviewing some grammatical concepts so I could clearly articulate them to my students as they came up in their writing. It’s almost like you didn’t even read my post. 

I wasn't trying to accuse you of holding those views, and if I came across that way I'm sorry. When I mentioned those methods in opposition to what I was doing or had read, it's because those are the opposing ideas to what I'm talking about that do exist. When I say something like , "rather than presenting Academic English as infallible" it's not in response to you - it's in response to what a great many teachers do. It is just the other option in the wider conversation. Sorry if that was unclear, or I made you feel like I was attacking you for some imaginary pedagogy. I'm more including the other because it is a part of the conversation (which is happening everywhere, for what it's worth. This has been a consistent conversation among writing teachers since at least my practicum a few years ago, so it definitely bears discussing.)

[M(allthevowels)H]

1 hour ago, punctilious said:

Happy venting!

Our CFO has given the go ahead for me to work remotely! That means I get to keep my job! I'M SO HAPPY!

Yay! Congratulations! Now you only have to worry about living in an area with such a subpar football team 

[EspritHabile]

2 hours ago, E. Coronaria said:

@EspritHabile: I’m at work and I don’t have time to answer this in full at the moment. I’m always interested in advice from others. 

However, I believe that there is a difference between penalizing students with grammar and taking the time to explain how their writing doesn’t meet SAE. As a student disenfranchised by a poor, rural public high school, I can tell you first hand that  ignoring standardized grammar because we don’t want to be complicit DOESN’T do the student any favors. Job applications, internships, other college classes, and graduate school applications will hold them to that standard, and not providing the information is disenfranchising the student. You don’t have to beat a student down to provide information clearly and sensitively. 

Perhaps I didn’t articulate that carefully enough in my very informal post. I want to empower my students with information, not penalize them with it. 

Hi, @E. Coronaria: I'm sorry--I didn't mean to insult or offend you with my post. 

I wasn't trying to say that I think you're only going to chalk and talk all day about grammar rules or that I think you're unfairly penalizing students. I'm also certainly not trying to advocate for ignoring grammar or withholding any sort of "code" from students.

I did, however, feel a need to respond to the idea of using grammar to "clearly articulate to my students why their writing is poor." I've been teaching composition for over a decade so I've worked with a lot of students who, as you said, have been effectively disenfranchised and whose confidence has been all but obliterated by past experiences with grammar instruction (or lack thereof), writing instruction, and school in general. And as @M(allthevowels)H has said, this is all part of a much larger conversation that has a lot of momentum in the field, so I think we were both trying to offer a summary of the larger state of things in order to position what we were saying in context. Like you, I care deeply about giving students access to as many tools for success as possible, and that's all I was trying to offer in my post: ways of granting and facilitating that access that don't involve having to necessarily master advanced grammatical concepts or to fall back on the all-too-common modes of teaching grammar that loads of people use because it's just the norm to do so. 

I tried to be pretty clear in my post about ways that I provide grammar instruction that gives students access to SAE without enforcing it as the only or even best way of presenting their ideas. The text I recommended is also an excellent read for anyone--not just people who will be teaching others--because it directly addresses the issues of being disenfranchised by grammar instruction (or a lack thereof) by reframing grammar is a toolkit rather than as a code students must learn or a monolith they must bow down to. The first time I read Rhetorical Grammar, I felt vindicated and empowered and it opened my eyes to ways that I could reframe my teaching role and relationship with students to give them rhetorical choices without having them leave their own grammar at the door.

Again, I'm not trying to suggest that I think you're out to do anything bad, I'm just an old fart with unsolicited advice.

 

[EspritHabile]

1 hour ago, punctilious said:

Happy venting!

Our CFO has given the go ahead for me to work remotely! That means I get to keep my job! I'M SO HAPPY!

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/hqIaXesRGpP44" width="480" height="258" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/loop-personal-fireworks-hqIaXesRGpP44">via GIPHY</a></p>

 

That's excellent news! I know you've posted a few times that you really love your job, so I can't tell you how happy I am that you get to keep doing what you love while the hubbinator takes on Hah-vahd!

Edited February 26, 2018 by EspritHabile
I can't GIF to save my life. >.<

[punctilious]

7 minutes ago, EspritHabile said:

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/hqIaXesRGpP44" width="480" height="258" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/loop-personal-fireworks-hqIaXesRGpP44">via GIPHY</a></p>

 

That's excellent news! I know you've posted a few times that you really love your job, so I can't tell you how happy I am that you get to keep doing what you love while the hubbinator takes on Hah-vahd!

FTFY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

[EspritHabile]

17 minutes ago, punctilious said:

FTFY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

!! How? How?! Please teach me; I obviously need it. lol

[punctilious]

8 minutes ago, EspritHabile said:

!! How? How?! Please teach me; I obviously need it. lol

Just paste the link to the image or gif (the URL that ends in the file type, like .png, .gif, .jpg) rather than the embed code, and it will automatically show up, if that makes sense!

[EspritHabile]

6 minutes ago, punctilious said:

Just paste the link to the image or gif (the URL that ends in the file type, like .png, .gif, .jpg) rather than the embed code, and it will automatically show up, if that makes sense!

Thanks! The imposter syndrome is at an all-time high now; how will I do this Ph.D. thing if I can't even GIF?

[CulturalCriminal]

@ everybody in this thread, imposter syndrome is normal. They've accepted you, they spent a great deal of time figuring out if you are ready. You're ready. Your cohorts might seem more impressive, but I guarantee that they're going through same thing (if they aren't, there's a good chance that they're in for a rude awakening).

 

[FreakyFoucault]

3 hours ago, punctilious said:

Happy venting!

Our CFO has given the go ahead for me to work remotely! That means I get to keep my job! I'M SO HAPPY!

It all works out!!!

[E. Coronaria]

@M(allthevowels)H and @EspritHabile: Thanks for your notes. I've written and deleted a few responses, but I don't feel that y'all are really responding to the offhand comment I made earlier today anyway (or the clarifications I posted). Although this has turned into an (interesting and important) debate, I'm not comfortable being cast as the opposition in this debate, because it doesn't accurately reflect my original comments or any of the clarifications I posted after. 

Maybe my writing is poor/ineffective today. 

All best!

[LibraryLivingJT]

19 hours ago, punctilious said:

Happy venting!

Our CFO has given the go ahead for me to work remotely! That means I get to keep my job! I'M SO HAPPY!

YAY!!!