Wait another year or unfunded PhD :/

[ssg]

Ugh.. Once again I didn't get any interviews for PhD programs (which is kind of understandable because the programs I applied to are highly competitive + with COVID there have been funding cuts and more applicants than past years) but after two rounds of applying, coming into my applications strong and 0 interviews both times, I'm feeling pretty defeated. I have a strong cv with 2 pubs, several posters and 4 of them are first author, and 5 years of research experience. My undergrad GPA was a 3.5 and I did a masters and got about the same (3.6-I had some mental health issues which took a dig at my academic performance), and a strong statement that 3 of my mentors and two former colleagues who are now PhD students all gave the green light to. Because of the amount of debt I got into with my masters, a fully funded program is preferable to me but seems almost impossible at this point. Alternatively, I could wait next year, get a few more pubs out, and hope an R01 will interview and take me, or apply to PhD programs in less competitive disciplines like social work, but the career options I want (research, teaching and mentoring, supervising trainees) are what a clinical psychologist has. Yesterday, I found out that Palo Alto University's PhD program  is still taking apps on a rolling basis for the next month. The program isn't funded, but I have colleagues that go there and all have said the research and clinical training are great because of the universities close affiliation with stanford. Since I am coming in with a masters I am also eligible for paid teaching assistantships. If I choose to go to a program like this, I would want to excel, because I know the reputations of non funded programs can be suspicious, so I could get a strong internship and postdoc (which I also know these things are super competitive as well) to hopefully one day get a research/teaching position. 

I'd just like some opinions on applying to this program vs waiting for another year to *potentially* get into an r01. Also what concerns me about non-funded programs is reputation of the program... professionally do you see this as an issue for future career options (internship/post doc placements since I want to be in academia)? Thanks in advance!!

[T.O.hopeful]

I can appreciate the dilemma you find yourself in! Were you able to reach out to the schools/POIs you didn't get interviews from to find out about your application and what you could do to improve? Depending on what they say, if you feel you can work on improving those things in a year, then you could consider trying for a funded program next year.

Alternatively, what have your colleagues said about Palo Alto and it's reputation professionally for prospective Clinical Psychologists? Seems like the connections you already have there are great resources to be able to answer your questions/concerns about Palo Alto's unpaid program? 

[Schy]

I'm so sorry to hear that you're in this situation ? Personally, I think I'd wait. I'm actually doing that now (not applying to masters because I don't want the debt!). The great thing about PhDs is that they SHOULD be funded. You are providing a service to the school and in turn they are shaping you and helping you set and reach goals that you wouldn't be able to do otherwise. I'm not sure how things would work in the future if you decided to apply to palo altos program, if there's any chance that it will impede on your progress as a post-doc/PhD I say DEFINITELY don't do it. But if people don't bat an eye at it....than maybe its just a matter of if you want more school debt. These are hard decisions to make and no one can make them for you. I'm a firm believer that we make the best out of any situation we're in and I believe you can do that as long as Palo Altos program doesn't look bad in the future. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Schy
spelling

[SocDevMum]

What are the completion and licensure rates like Palo Alto? Is it APA accredited? Those are the big three for clinical programs, so if they are fully accredited and have excellent licensure rates, then it's worth considering unfunded, if you are willing to take on a boatload of debt.  But if not... it doesn't matter what connections they have to Stanford, if the graduates aren't getting licensed and getting jobs, it's a bust. Keep building your CV and try again next year

[PsychNerd7]

I'd wait. Also next round maybe apply to Counseling Psych programs because there's a lot of overlap. 

[frazyfar]

26 minutes ago, PsychNerd7 said:

I'd wait. Also next round maybe apply to Counseling Psych programs because there's a lot of overlap. 

I would like to second this. Many Counseling programs are also funded; I'd rather attend a funded Counseling program than an unfunded Clinical one. The ending licensure is the same and the doors that Clinical may or may not open for you do not compensate for the debt you would incur in an unfunded program. 

[counselingpsychbound]

Ok so given your background you prob know all this but: Apply to counseling and clinical, apply all over the country, apply to competitive and less competitive schools (see Insider's Guide to figure this out) and you should get in somewhere with your strong background. I second reaching out for feedback from schools that rejected your app. You said you applied to mainly highly competitive schools; there are less competitive programs that have ok funding. Maybe consider taking the GRE and psych subject to supplement the grades? Also, how were your letters? 

Personally, I believe competition will continue like it is this year before it gets better. There are talks of the GRE being largely phased out which opens up the pool and the economic blowback from COVID is just getting started = people out of jobs/going back to school and lack of funding. Sorry if this sounds pessimistic but more realistic in terms of where and when you are applying. I was convinced this year was going to be a breeze but boy did we all get hit with the hardest cycle.

Finally, what are you considering a funded vs. not-funded school? Guaranteed funding is competitive but a school that doesn't guarantee funding doesn't necessarily mean you're not going to get funding, sometimes it means you just have to hustle. 

Best of luck to you!!! You have wayyyy more experience than me I know you WILL get in somewhere!  

[counselingpsychbound]

I didn't even answer your question...Palo Alto is APA accredited but more clinical focused from my understanding, I could be wrong. If you're wanting to go into academia, with how competitive it is to get faculty positions, I feel like R01 or bust ? 

[SendMeAnEmailPlz]

Apply to counseling and clinical programs. You can seek identical careers and their training is very similar. You can even pursue externships that are aligned with clinical psych training if you go to a counseling program (i.e. seeing patients with severe mental illness in a hospital setting).

Many counseling programs have higher acceptance rates simply because they get fewer applicants. 

Apply to more schools across the whole country. Don't just apply to places that get 500+ applicants. Any funded R1 or R2 will give you a chance to pursue the career you want.

And don't cross schools off because you think you aren't a perfect fit with any professor's research program. You can always make the case that you are a fit in your personal statement. Professors vary in how they approach fit. But most of them don't want clones of themselves. 

Palo Alto would not be a good choice. It is unfunded in an area with the highest COL in the country.

[broski]

Check out this thread about the Palo Alto psych program at Student Doctor Network. Seems like they have more insider info about the program, but thread is also a bit old.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/palo-alto-university-clinical-ph-d-program.899272/

[DocPending]

On 2/3/2021 at 11:23 PM, ssg said:

Ugh.. Once again I didn't get any interviews for PhD programs (which is kind of understandable because the programs I applied to are highly competitive + with COVID there have been funding cuts and more applicants than past years) but after two rounds of applying, coming into my applications strong and 0 interviews both times, I'm feeling pretty defeated. I have a strong cv with 2 pubs, several posters and 4 of them are first author, and 5 years of research experience. My undergrad GPA was a 3.5 and I did a masters and got about the same (3.6-I had some mental health issues which took a dig at my academic performance), and a strong statement that 3 of my mentors and two former colleagues who are now PhD students all gave the green light to. Because of the amount of debt I got into with my masters, a fully funded program is preferable to me but seems almost impossible at this point. Alternatively, I could wait next year, get a few more pubs out, and hope an R01 will interview and take me, or apply to PhD programs in less competitive disciplines like social work, but the career options I want (research, teaching and mentoring, supervising trainees) are what a clinical psychologist has. Yesterday, I found out that Palo Alto University's PhD program  is still taking apps on a rolling basis for the next month. The program isn't funded, but I have colleagues that go there and all have said the research and clinical training are great because of the universities close affiliation with stanford. Since I am coming in with a masters I am also eligible for paid teaching assistantships. If I choose to go to a program like this, I would want to excel, because I know the reputations of non funded programs can be suspicious, so I could get a strong internship and postdoc (which I also know these things are super competitive as well) to hopefully one day get a research/teaching position. 

I'd just like some opinions on applying to this program vs waiting for another year to *potentially* get into an r01. Also what concerns me about non-funded programs is reputation of the program... professionally do you see this as an issue for future career options (internship/post doc placements since I want to be in academia)? Thanks in advance!!

Something that helped me was being very intentional about the programs I applied to. I used The Insiders Guide to PhD Programs in Clinical and Counseling Psychology. This will tell you how many people applied to a program vs how many accepted, avg. gpa and gre scores of applicants, if they've offered assistantships, faculty interests, etc. While I applied to bigger more competitive schools I also applied to programs that aligned with my interests that had 60 applicants on average instead of 300. Or if I saw a program with average GRE quantitative scores being 167 and I am a 156 I would see that I am not very competitive for that program. If that makes sense? Using that guide has helped me increase the number of interview invites I received and got accepted into fully funded programs.