Social/dating catch-up in graduate school

[Visualizer]

Hello,

I have started a PhD program this fall. I have been in several other programs, and dropped out, mainly due to chronic health issues that were affecting my mental health. I also have been a social late bloomer all my life, and chronic illness (which started in high school) made that like 10x worse.

Anyway, I'm inexperienced with relationships, i.e. I've never had one (not even the totally unserious middle-school ones). I very much want one, but here's the thing--at this point I'd only really be interested in dating someone who is at least close to my level of (in)experience. Yes, I'd be open to sex or casual dating with a woman who has had boyfriends before, but sex is something I feel like I have my whole lifetime to have (and I'm technically not a virgin--I've done some things with girls I was repulsed by out of desperation). What time feels like it's really running out on is finding someone who feels the same "cutesy newness" about the whole IDEA of having a boy/girlfriend that I do. I feel I will die unhappy unless I get to experience this at least once.

It's also not just dating that I'm behind in, it's also friendship. I've always been introverted and as a kid never cared to have friends. Now I'm finding that I really miss never having had a friend to find secret spots in the woods with, and just be creative and doing things out of pure curiosity. Everyone else has fond memories of these things from childhood and I don't.

So really, the issue is that intellectually and socially I'm decades apart in my development. Intellectually, I have a very developed knowledge of my areas of interest, to where other grad students and some staff have even joked that I could be a professor. On the other hand, socially I feel more like a middle schooler in many ways, and the whole meaning I see in romance and friendship is more along the lines of someone that age.

So my question is, what is the best way forward. It's pretty clear that at least at the start I need a mix of graduate students, undergraduates, and professors in my social circle, because finding people in one stage of academia who are aligned with me in all areas of my life will be difficult. Undergrads won't be able to discuss some theory I have that's so complex and unique that few people in the world could understand it. On the other hand, emotionally and romantically I will probably only find commonalities in undergrads, and they would even have to be developmentally-delayed undergrads at that. I'm not closed off to the idea that there could be a graduate student who is like me in all ways, but I'm not holding my breath.

The problem is how to fit all this into a seamless whole. I've noticed that at every school, including my current one, graduate students, undergrads, and faculty live for the most part in separate "universes". And, it's even worse than that--among just the grad students, science and humanities students act almost like they're allergic to one another. This is very discouraging to me, because at this point in my social development it's important to meet people who are intellectually living in as many different "worlds" as possible, and who speak different "languages" (color and rhythm and poetry as well as code and equations). 

Has anyone here navigated this kind of situation gracefully?

 

 

Edited September 9, 2016 by Visualizer

[St Andrews Lynx]

Use the internet. Meetup is great for meeting people who share your interests, and the gatherings are already structured (e.g. going out on a hike, having a game night) which makes them easier to navigate. For dating, set up profiles and try OKCupid, Match, etc. You can try looking through the archives of Dan Savage's "Savage Love" - there is advice for everyone everywhere on the dating experience/sexuality spectrum. 

I'd also encourage you not to look at this as a rigid scientific process. If you say to yourself now "I can only obtain a meaningful relationship with a person who has had 0-2 serious relationships"... (i) you limit your dating pool (ii) you stay in incompatible relationships longer because you think this "should" be working (iii) cutesy-newness is overrated. Same with friendship. If you start saying to yourself that only friendships with "mentally-underdeveloped" undergrads could possibly work out...you're going to struggle to find any friends. Some undergrads are fiercely intelligent and will be able to contribute meaningfully to discussions about your research. Some grad students have plenty of friends who are undergrads. Wouldn't it be more useful to have friendships with sociable and emotionally-mature folk, so you could learn somethings from them? Part of having friends in the first place is to enjoy their company: why deliberately seek out "friends" who are awkward to be around?

I think that all good things involve plenty of trial and error to get to. You need to go on lots of dates with a variety of people to figure out who you're attracted to and what is important for you in a relationship. You need to take the initiative when it comes to making friends and be prepared for cool people to blow you off/forget to invite you to their parties. Don't assume that you are too different or inexperienced to form friendships/relationships the way that "normal people" do. Don't expect everything to be perfect the first time you attempt it. 

[rising_star]

In terms of dating, there are soooo many dating apps out there, some more general (Tinder, Match, OkCupid, Bumble, Coffee Meets Bagel) and more cater to particular interests/characteristics/types of people (offhand I can think of Growler, Grindr, TrekkieDating, FarmersOnly, eHarmony, and JDate). Some of these are more for hookups, others for dating, and others where you could find a combination of things. If you really are interested in getting to know people check out several apps which meet your interests/desires and give them a shot. As long as you're not in a small, rural town, you should be able to match with at least a few dozen people across various apps.

I second everything @St Andrews Lynx said about your approach to all of this.

[knp]

I never had to 'catch up' in this particular way, but when I had my project of 'catch-up' in a couple other social dimensions, here's what I did.

• Read a lot of advice columns, e.g. Savage Love. It helps you realize other people are having the same issue...or are having other issues that you now might understand a little better!
• I don't know how it is in computational biology, but my field requires a couple really hard (from an English background) languages. So I've spent a lot of time in language classes. One thing that everybody always talks about in language class is how it is much better to be the worst speaker of the language in the class than it is to be the best student. The way learning works, as long as you start out able to keep up at all, you will progress much more rapidly than the others. Usually at the end of the class, all the speakers are about the same level, so the more advanced ones were occasionally bored, but the lowest-level student will have rocketed up to match them. I wonder if this might be a helpful way to think about your social relationships, per St Andrews Lynx. You will likely do better to find people who are bringing something cool to the relationship, even if sometimes you're out of your depth, than somebody whose only positive traits for you are that they're about at your "social level." If that's all you needed to have in common, you might have been friends with the other kindergarteners in kindergarten. But relationships need more than that, so find the meetups suggestions and work on finding the 'more than that.'
• Because this seems to be a source of anxiety for you, I'd try to find a biweekly or monthly therapist, because you're embarking on a big project and it will make the project nicer if you can check in occasionally with somebody about how it's going.
• Try not to have sexual relations with people you actively look down on. Getting physical with someone you not just don't respect, but who 'repulses' you, is both a shitty thing to do and, if you keep doing it, will make developing a healthy attitude about sex and/or romance much harder in the long run.

[Visualizer]

I have to respectfully, but VERY strongly, disagree with a few of the posters here.

One thing is that the entire life stage, socially speaking, of graduate students is kind of opposite of my own. Typical graduate students, while smart, were often decently "normal" kids, who had friends and all that, and played at the park together, and whatever. In high school and/or college, they had some sort of relationships, possibly very casual ones, but relationships nonetheless. Now that they are in graduate school, they are for the first time really focusing on their area of interest, and surrounding themselves with others in those areas of interest. This increased commitment to their field tends to come with a more adult level of commitment and seriousness to other areas in their lives, including the emotional ones.

In my case, while other kids played at the park with each other, I was in my room thinking about all kinds of intellectual things. I got to high school before I even started to realize how unusual my development had been. At that point I started making friends, but then a chronic illness more or less derailed that. I made it through undergrad, but then in my first attempts at grad school I started to flounder because my illness was taking a severe toll on my mental health. So I moved back in with parents and actually regressed in the sense of becoming more dependent and less able to take on adult responsibilities. Now that I'm back in graduate school I am the most confident I've been in a long time in my ability to keep up with demands, but socially I still feel like the only kid in a group of adults, and I have an overwhelming need to meet people who are NOT on the same science "track" that I am, just as others' worlds are shrinking to almost be more like mine was as a kid. 

 I don't mean that I want to meet "party animals" or ditzes, I'm drawn to other introverted people who have interests and talents in areas far outside of mine--art, music, writing, etc. Not only do these people have something to teach me, to expand my world, but also because of my lack of development in other areas besides scientific abilities, I find it somehow destabilizes my identity to not feel like the smartest person in a group in my field. I have learned to ignore this feeling in a work setting, but at times socially and especially romantically I feel more drawn to people who are NOT my scientific peers. The times I have felt romantic attraction to other science students, it has almost invariably been to ones in a less "mathy" field than my own.

But now back to the main idea--I understand how being around more socially mature people can be helpful, IF the goal is to grow socially as quickly as possible. But that's a huge "IF", which happens to be false in my case. My biggest dread is that I will be forced to "grow up too fast" in terms of romantic relationships. I would MUCH rather find someone who is, romantically speaking, more on my level, i.e. with a similar lack of a developed idea of what she wants from a relationship, and a similarly youthful, curious approach to the whole process. Most people my age are already nearing the point where they could get married to someone and even start a family, whereas my desires are much more along the lines of someone with whom to just explore what love FEELS like in the first place. I would hate to be in a one-sided relationship where the other person tries to mold me into a "normal adult" romantically speaking, and won't be content to just explore things with me with the same curiosity that I feel. The idea of this sounds worse to me than no relationship at all.

At one point I was even worrying that this delay would eventually culminate in a full-fledged attraction to children, but thankfully it hasn't. It seems I am generally most attracted to people around the 18-20 age range, where they in many ways have the "spirit" of children but are beginning to show signs of intellectual adulthood, i.e. of really looking critically at what they are learning. I agree that this group isn't ideal, as intellectually speaking many of them are still TOO "simple", and yet socially some of them are even already too experienced and grown-up for me. It is certainly possible that there are other graduate students who grew up like myself, who might be better matches than these people. However, such grad students will obviously be few and far between.

Also, in response to knp's last comment, my being repulsed with those few sexual partners had zilch to do with lack of "respect". These were nice women, and certainly not with any kind of bad reputation, but physically I found them ugly, and probably more importantly there was a complete and utter absence of any kind of "spark" in terms of their personality.

I hope that clarifies things.

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2016 by Visualizer

[Visualizer]

Something else, because I realize that knp mentioned it, but I didn't address it above:

Yes, the "coolness factor" is super-important. I do want someone who finds my enthusiasm for, and interest in, science, really "cool". And not only that, I want to be able to find something "cool" about what she does, too. Like I said, just the fact that I don't necessarily want to date an intellectual/academic rival doesn't mean I want to date someone without talent or personality, some kind of vacuous teenager stereotype.

Also, originality is important. Like, a girl who is obsessed with Disney and goes to Disneyland twice a year and collects all kind of merchandise from the movies just strikes me as kind of two-dimensional. She might be interesting at first because she "seems" young, but it's not really a basis for a relationship. On the other hand, a girl who is so inspired by the fantasy worlds in Disney stories that she invents her own worlds and draws them, complete with detailed maps--now that is cool! My ideas in science are original, so a girl should have an original approach to things too.

And yes, I'm well aware that the people who draw the magical worlds in Disney movies are almost certainly all adults. I think therein actually lies the point--there's a difference between sophistication/ability and emotional seriousness. The kind of relationships I am ready for are "younger" in terms of the emotions involved, although being older I will necessarily bring more sophistication into the topics of conversation and the level of depth in which I think about those emotions, just as even though the Disney movies have more childlike content, the quality of the art and animation is above what most children could hope to do. I really think what it all comes down to is curiosity, like me, having studied all the math and science I have, am no longer curious about what variables are or what the circulatory system generally does. Similarly, someone who has been in a long term relationship is much less likely to be curious about what it feels like to cuddle with someone or what it feels like when someone you have a crush on likes you back. They are more likely curious about what went wrong with their other relationships, who they want to spend the rest of their lives with, etc. The issue of what people hope to get out of a relationship is very important, regardless of the level of ability each person brings.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Visualizer

[TakeruK]

Hi Visualizer,

I am a little confused about what you want. In the first post, you ask "what is the best way" forward and your post title mentions "catching up", but then in recent posts, you say that you don't want to grow quickly. I think it's important for you to consider what the others have said so far, especially the parts that you disagree with. I'm not saying that you have to change everything about yourself suddenly or do a whole bunch of things you are not comfortable with. 

But, growing does mean that you have to be willing and ready to get a little uncomfortable. I think you can and should decide which parts can be uncomfortable. The reason why I said I was confused is not because I don't understand the difference between wanting to grow and "not wanting to grow too quickly". I do see the difference. However, you asked for advice on the "best" way forward and as I said above, growing requires a little bit of discomfort. "Not wanting to grow too quickly" is a subjective term that could mean something different for you than it does for me or another person reading.

I think you have mentioned that you are working with someone to help guide your development. This is good. Have you talked to them about your desire to grow and venture outside of your comfort area? Maybe you could work with your counselor to discuss your worries and concerns about growing and between the two of you, you can identify some specific areas you may be okay with getting uncomfortable. It might even help to come up with some strategies to deal with your discomfort when it comes up. And maybe you want to also come up with an "emergency escape plan" on what to do if you get really uncomfortable. 

The reason I say this is because in your posts here, you have mentioned a lot of things that you must specifically have in order to be happy. It's fine to know what you are happy with. However, it's not realistic or practical or possible to have all of it at once, immediately. So, out of all of these things, what are you most willing to give up, temporarily? Maybe you can then build your next social or romantic relationship without worrying about that one factor and see where it goes. You're not committed to giving up that thing forever. After all, I think most people aged 18-20 also aren't necessarily looking for friends or romantic partners for life, so starting a friendship or romantic relationship with someone doesn't mean that you are compromising your identity or that you have to change your own life forever. I encourage you to continue talking and working with your counselor to find the best strategies moving forward (after all, most of us here aren't properly trained for this!)

P.S. Just to address your comment on "respect". I think that you have that part wrong. You say that there isn't lack of respect, however, you immediately described your former partners in extremely negative ways right after saying you "respected" them. This shows me that you do not really respect your former partners.

[Eigen]

Lots of good advice, here, I just want to add one other thing, since it hasn't been explicitly said:

If you're a grad student, don't date undergraduates. They may be right for you in some ways, but the potential complications (and legal or ethical issues from your school) are not worth the risk. Take the time to find someone closer to your age that is in a similar position. 

I also think you're maximizing your uniqueness in this area. You don't sound that different than other friends of mine when they started grad school. You are used to setting yourself apart, and you see very clearly where you developed differently or slowly in these areas- I think you're underestimating how many other people they are with unique but parallel trajectories in graduate programs. 

[Pink Fuzzy Bunny]

1 hour ago, Eigen said:

I think you're underestimating how many other people they are with unique but parallel trajectories in graduate programs. 

This. In fact, I would venture to say that most people in my program have always been so focused on "intellectual pursuits" that they also feel "behind" socially. I know I do. 

[Effloresce]

I guess I'll be the person that speaks up about this, but...all your posts seem really off (for lack of a better word). 

It seems really condescending..like everything you're saying seems really condescending. Before branching into relationships, I think you should work on just basic social interaction with people first because you kind of lack a little bit of empathy, respect, and tact.

Just my two cents. 

P.S. why even hook up with people you find repulsive? A pity fuck? Cause that's pretty gross on your part.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Effloresce
had to add that last ps, ok

[AnimeChic101!]

7 hours ago, Pink Fuzzy Bunny said:

This. In fact, I would venture to say that most people in my program have always been so focused on "intellectual pursuits" that they also feel "behind" socially. I know I do. 

This is painfully and woefully me. I was much more social in undergrad. Grad-school sucked that out of me. There are more people in the same boat as you than you think.

[Visualizer]

As for the "people I don't respect" thing--I interpreted that as referring to people who I think are stupid, morally bankrupt, good for nothing, etc. These were people I found unattractive, but I don't make the rather arrogant step of assuming that people who don't turn me on (either romantically OR sexually) are somehow less morally or humanly worthy people. And as for the reason--I was unsure whether I'd ever meet someone I was attracted to who would like me back, and I was tired of waiting.

I think I kind of had four things that I listed as important in a partner:

1) Someone who is new to relationships, like myself, and wants a more childlike and playful relationship

2) Someone who is introverted and intellectual, but not a rival/in the same field

3) Someone I find physically and emotionally (in terms of "raw" mannerisms and the like) attractive to me

4) Someone who fits, logistically and practically speaking, into my life.

I'd be willing to put in some work to get someone who fits all/most of these, and if someone "fell into my lap" so to speak, I'd have a relationship that has some drawbacks. My fear is that I'd have to put in lots of work even to get someone who has had umpteen relationships before me, is in my same field, and maybe is only moderately attractive, and even then not be nearly assured of finding someone.

4 hours ago, BlackRosePhD said:

This is painfully and woefully me. I was much more social in undergrad. Grad-school sucked that out of me. There are more people in the same boat as you than you think.

I think you're saying that you really are "normal", though--like it wasn't that you had less of a need/willingness for social contact in high school and undergrad than you do now (my pattern), you were social when you're younger and now you're shut in (typical pattern).

[Visualizer]

Oh, and about the title--I meant "catching up" as a process not a goal, as in, having the kind of experiences that others had in middle/high school, so that I (maybe) get to where I want and am ready for relationships more like what other graduate student are having. Even if I could somehow "fake it until I make it" and actually do OK jumping into a fully adult-type relationship, that wouldn't satisfy the underlying need.

[Eigen]

I think you're severely overestimating how many people had some traditional middle/high school "typical" relationship. And how impactful that experience is on the rest of us.

 

[rising_star]

4 hours ago, Visualizer said:

Oh, and about the title--I meant "catching up" as a process not a goal, as in, having the kind of experiences that others had in middle/high school, so that I (maybe) get to where I want and am ready for relationships more like what other graduate student are having. Even if I could somehow "fake it until I make it" and actually do OK jumping into a fully adult-type relationship, that wouldn't satisfy the underlying need.

First, I want to ask you some questions. What do you mean when you say that this "wouldn't satisfy the underlying need"? What exactly is this underlying need you think you have? And why do you think it can only be satisfied in certain ways? I'm asking because I agree with Eigen that it sounds like you're overestimating these middle/high school relationships. (Side note: what kinds of experiences do you think people were having in middle/high school? For quite a lot of us, that was a time of being introverted, getting labeled as the class geek, being socially awkward, and having few friends...) 

For what it's worth, I don't think that you can or should assume that you can somehow have a "fully adult-type relationship" (whatever that means!) without having other relationships first. You have friendships with people, you maybe go on a few dates with people and see if it's worth a relationship, and you learn from these experiences. I find it odd that you have such a detailed list of what you must have in a relationship when you haven't really been in any. At least speaking for myself, I've learned a lot about what I seek in a partner by actually going on dates (including a number of first dates that never led to anything more), dating (that is, going on a series of dates with the same person), and being in relationships. Not all of these have been successes but, even where they haven't been, I've learned a lot. I feel like you're trying to skip ahead in the personal development that comes from dating but I'm not sure that will be helpful. It could very well be that you find and date someone that matches all of your current criteria, only to realize that there are other things that are more important to you.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say you want someone else that seeks a "childlike and playful relationship". Do you mean someone who makes you laugh? Someone who also isn't great at relationships or hasn't dated a lot of people? If it's any of those three, I think you can easily find someone your own age while in grad school who shares those desires. 

Last, but not least, my experience with dating people who are older than me has been that I expected them to be more mature than I was in an emotional sense. You may find the same thing in your quest to date younger, which is one of the many reasons you are being cautioned against taking that approach to dating. 

[Visualizer]

On 9/14/2016 at 4:31 PM, rising_star said:

First, I want to ask you some questions. What do you mean when you say that this "wouldn't satisfy the underlying need"? What exactly is this underlying need you think you have? And why do you think it can only be satisfied in certain ways? I'm asking because I agree with Eigen that it sounds like you're overestimating these middle/high school relationships. (Side note: what kinds of experiences do you think people were having in middle/high school? For quite a lot of us, that was a time of being introverted, getting labeled as the class geek, being socially awkward, and having few friends...)

If the girls around me have had this experience too, then that increases my chances. I mean what the "average" people have in middle/high school--casual relationships (by adult standards) that are nonetheless intense because of the newness of it all for both parties, and that are driven by curiosity. 

On 9/14/2016 at 4:31 PM, rising_star said:

For what it's worth, I don't think that you can or should assume that you can somehow have a "fully adult-type relationship" (whatever that means!) without having other relationships first. 

As I said, I DON'T think I'm ready for a "fully adult-type relationship".

On 9/14/2016 at 4:31 PM, rising_star said:

Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say you want someone else that seeks a "childlike and playful relationship". Do you mean someone who makes you laugh? Someone who also isn't great at relationships or hasn't dated a lot of people? If it's any of those three, I think you can easily find someone your own age while in grad school who shares those desires. 

There are a whole bunch of things included in this, so it's really hard to list them all. Also, none of these things alone really describes it, and some are not even absolutely necessary--it's just the general "tone" of a relationship, that's hard to define precisely. The "someone who hasn't dated a lot of people" probably comes closest.

Basically, I'm envisioning someone for whom the whole idea of having a guy like her whom she likes back as being kind of "mythical", because it's something she's never experienced. Like, the girls around her have had boyfriends, but she never thought she'd have one herself. When a guy (hopefully me) finally likes her whom she like back, it would be an almost otherworldly experience. Otherwise, I feel there will be this one-sidedness where I find it otherworldly to have a girlfriend, but she will find it ordinary. Note that this doesn't even require that she consciously *wanted* a boyfriend before--it's possible that she (like me, in high school) just doesn't care about finding anyone because she's too much in her own head.

What I mean by someone who seeks a "childlike and playful relationship", though, is someone who has a "virginal" sort of curiosity about the male body, who is kind of starry-eyed, and who really gets carried away when she gets a crush on a guy. Most women my age have seen and touched quite some male bodies and also have gotten to the point where their feelings of "crushes" are much more subdued than when they were teens. All of these combine to make them less attractive.

Also, there are just traits that on some very intuitive level convey a certain level of development. Like, ALL the girls I've had crushes on in maybe the last 10 years had facial features that were soft and "cutesy". I like a decent number of Asian girls not because of some kind of fetishistic interest in Asian culture, but because of these cutesy features being more common among them. Also, I'm attracted to mannerisms that are in some way reminiscent of a child, like hyperness, gigglyness, etc. I feel like I have to act really grown up in professional settings, so in romantic settings I want to be able to be myself, which includes being more childlike. Note this doesn't mean that I want a relationship where a girl looks up to me as some sort of parental figure, much less calls me "Daddy" or something weird like that. It's more about not provoking my own sense of being an impostor in the adult world.

Interestingly, quite a few girls that have been interested in me have been like 180 degrees from that, like having almost exaggeratedly grown-up-womanish features. Grad school for some weird and inexplicable reason seems to attract these sorts of women too--except for the Asians. I know this is extreme stereotyping but it's something I notice, especially when I compare them to the undergrads at the same university.

I also fear that the type I mentioned in the beginning--the ones who find the idea of having a boyfriend almost "mythical", are likely to be hideous and/or have really ugly personalities. In one way it kind of makes sense--why would I be the first guy to like a girl--though on the other hand my lack of dating has had to do with introversion and illness--two things that have nothing to do with my attractiveness per se. A female counterpart of me might have just been late to "get the memo" that people around her had started dating.

On 9/14/2016 at 4:31 PM, rising_star said:

Last, but not least, my experience with dating people who are older than me has been that I expected them to be more mature than I was in an emotional sense. You may find the same thing in your quest to date younger, which is one of the many reasons you are being cautioned against taking that approach to dating. 

In some ways I am attracted to what may be called emotional immaturity, like as I mentioned above, tending to get carried away when having crushes. One thing I didn't mention above was it seems that people of grad-school age don't get crushes/fall in love as easily as young teens do, but don't fall out of love as quickly either. That's a part of the disconnect I feel too--I feel like any girl who likes me will like me a lot longer than I will like her, just because I'm still in that more "volatile" stage. I feel that this will keep me from ever really exploring options, because a large number of people I could learn from being in a relationship with will already know what they want too well to give me a chance.

In some ways I'd like someone with emotional maturity too--like someone who doesn't spend lots of time gossiping or hate school because it's cool to do so. But I think these are more nerd vs. popular-kid things than maturity things.

[TakeruK]

From your descriptions, two things come to mind:

1. It sounds like you are saying that you have a really strong need to be important/significant. For example, you feel disoriented when you aren't the foremost expert in your field in the room. You want to be unique/special in a romantic way to a potential partner. Being important / making a difference in a world is a common human need. I feel that your expression of this need is more extreme. Of course, it's your life and your choices, but may I suggest a slightly different perspective? You want your potential partner to have "otherworldly" experiences about you because you want your own experiences reciprocated. But how about another thought: you and your partner can still have "otherworldly" experiences even if the reason for these experiences are completely different. You might be feeling this because it's your first significant relationship and they might be interested in you because you are interesting in other ways! 

2. It also sounds to me like you are saying that your ability to be happy in a relationship depends on how things that should be completely out of your control. You cannot choose how another person feels about you or how they act. It may not be healthy to depend on how others feel in order to gain satisfaction or happiness. From your description, it almost sounds like you are already crafting the "perfect partner" in your head and now you are trying to find people and then you want them to become this idealized perfect partner. I would advise against this. For a scientific analogy, this would be similar to pre-selecting the conclusion/experimental outcome you want ahead of time and then trying to design the perfect experiment that produces the outcome you want! 

This is why many people have continually suggest that you reconsider these impossibly high "standards" you set for a potential partner (and also all the perceived "barriers" you set up for yourself that might not actually exist in reality). You have all these expectations and needs out of life that aren't realistic because they are not things you can choose (e.g. how another person feels) and it's not likely you will be able to both identify someone that meets all of these things without getting to know them more casually first. Also, as you have said before, you are inexperienced. So, you may find what you want/need will change as you gain more experiences.

[klader]

There's some great advice already here on this thread, but to address more of the social/friendship part of your question: your cohort is a GREAT way to form quick and powerful bonds. At my program, we had a teaching practicum before the official semester began, and we bonded in those two weeks and, even though we're all in different tracks of the English program, we continue to go out together on the weekends, hang out in our offices between classes, grab a drink on Wednesday nights because we otherwise might explode, go grocery shopping together, go read together in the library, etc.

I've found that people tend to be very social and welcoming to others (at least where I am), so if/when someone/a group asks you to study with them, grab a coffee with them, etc., GO! Even if you don't know if you all "click," give it a try. There are some people in my program I hung out with in the beginning and haven't really hung out with since because I found others who better fit my personality type/shared my interests, and that just happens naturally. Sometimes you just "click" with people. You make each other laugh, you start creating inside jokes, you feel comfortable around them, you want to hang out with them outside class and outside school, you tell them your problems, they tell you their problems, they're sympathetic to you, etc. I suppose that can be said about romantic relationships as well, but even at the friend level, I find that it all just sort of happens. You don't necessarily look for it, but you need to be ready for it in case it happens.

Grad school is weird because it's so intense and there's lots of pressure and work, but the people in your program understand that better than anyone, so they're great to hang out with. Margarita Mondays with my cohort is something very near and dear to my heart, and it's the little things that bring people together and make their shared graduate experience more pleasant and enjoyable.

[Visualizer]

TakeruK--I suppose that my need to be "significant" arises in large part from my experience growing up, from my "formative years" so to speak. When I was a kid I spent all my free time alone, so I saw myself as "separate" from everyone else. What gave me a place in the world, though, was my unique ability--the fact that academically/intellectually I was way ahead. Also, as I have mentioned before, I didn't go through the "normal" adolescent period of finding a peer group, of finding somewhere where I fit in. So now I think my sense of self with respect to other people is unusually fragile/undeveloped compared to other people's.

Also, I think that everyone's happiness in a relationship depends critically on who the other person is and how he/she feels. It's just the nature of relationships.

klader--I agree the best way of meeting people is when things just "click". The issue is meeting them to begin with. I don't think I will form close bonds with my cohort because we're in really different periods of our lives and have different emotional needs, aside from getting through graduate school. Especially in my cohort which is only seven people. It's possible that there's someone else like me there--never had a boy/girlfriend, still figuring out who he/she is socially, still has childlike curiosity, would ideally have friends to play playground sort of games with--but it's unlikely with such small numbers. Even my program as a whole is small. It's probably most likely I would meet a match among undergrads, or MAYBE grad students in unrelated fields.

[eternallyephemeral]

First of all, this whole dating undergrads goal you have is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm not saying you are going to intentionally try to have some sort of skewed power dynamic, but that's what you're describing. You have to be very careful about this (and I would say don't do it at all), because you are older, you are in a position of authority over undergraduates, and it's possible that your goals in this relationship would be very damaging to the trust and open communication you should have in a relationship.

 

As well, your assumption that someone who isn't familiar with the "male body" and has some kind of "otherworldly fascination" with all things new and sexual is wrong as well. Many guys I've spoken to have some form of insecurity or jealousy when it comes to sex. Some even go so far as to not date women that have had sex with other people, even after they themselves are not virgins (I guess this is what you're saying?). Now this is completely hypocritical, I hope you realize.

 

It's also not necessary that someone have no experience for them to be attracted to you, to have some kind of childlike wonder (a really creepy term to use in this discussion), or to feel some exciting crush with butterflies in your stomach and all that. I feel that about my boyfriend of 2.5 years, and it's nowhere near the first relationship I've had.

 

"Interestingly, quite a few girls that have been interested in me have been like 180 degrees from that, like having almost exaggeratedly grown-up-womanish features. Grad school for some weird and inexplicable reason seems to attract these sorts of women too--except for the Asians. I know this is extreme stereotyping but it's something I notice, especially when I compare them to the undergrads at the same university.

I also fear that the type I mentioned in the beginning--the ones who find the idea of having a boyfriend almost "mythical", are likely to be hideous and/or have really ugly personalities. In one way it kind of makes sense--why would I be the first guy to like a girl--though on the other hand my lack of dating has had to do with introversion and illness--two things that have nothing to do with my attractiveness per se. A female counterpart of me might have just been late to "get the memo" that people around her had started dating."

1. I can't believe people in grad school (who are generally older) look older than people in undergrad (who are generally younger). It's not extreme stereotyping (except the Asian part), it's just how aging changes your face.

2. This theory you have about finding relationships "mythical" and being "hideous and/or really ugly in their personality" is absolutely wrong. There are many people who are very attractive (in looks and personality, if this is the only requirement) who have not had relationships before. You don't know what experiences they have had, and again you're falling prey to this fallacy that you're so special and no one else has experienced this before. You touch on this point, but you don't seem to recognize that it's completely wrong. As well, people can be unattractive to YOU, while being attractive to others. You can also have a relationship, even if you are unattractive. Your constant talk about women's looks, their inexperience, and how special you want to be to them just reeks of unstable and insecure masculinity.

 

 

"I think I kind of had four things that I listed as important in a partner:

1) Someone who is new to relationships, like myself, and wants a more childlike and playful relationship

2) Someone who is introverted and intellectual, but not a rival/in the same field

3) Someone I find physically and emotionally (in terms of "raw" mannerisms and the like) attractive to me

4) Someone who fits, logistically and practically speaking, into my life."

1. For you two to be compatible, you need not have the same level of experience. If it's a good relationship, it's childlike and playful (if that's what the two people want). You mentioned not wanting to be so professional and serious in your relationship. Well I'm here to tell you that it's possible - relationships are not like going to an academic talk. They're fun, you can laugh and play and run around and go on the swings and act like kids and no one should judge you. Even if you're in a relationship with someone who has been in a relationship before. My most childlike and playful relationship is my current one, technically eight years after my first (middle-school type) relationship and four years after my more serious first relationship.

2. Your concern about the person being a rival shows me that you are still a bit confused about how relationships work. Or you're very insecure about competing with people. Either way, this needs to be dealt with before you get into any kind of relationship. If not, this will all be raising some serious red flags for the people you're dating. If it doesn't raise serious red flags for them, I would be surprised.

3. This is very important. However, you can not limit yourself, and don't think your level of attraction to the person when you first meet will be related to how attracted you are to them later on. Things really change as a relationship develops, and for me the best relationships where my attraction got stronger were never the ones in which I was most attracted to the person at the beginning. Because then you can only go down from there!

4. I agree with this. This is absolutely important as well. I strongly believe that most undergraduates would not meet this.

 

So generally, please, please don't start dating until you've dealt with these personal issues and these dangerous misconceptions about women, relationships, and compatibility. All I see coming out of this if you start dating without facing and eliminating these issues is a dangerously power imbalanced relationship where you unknowingly end up taking advantage of the other person, all the while trying to stay special/important to them. And that will not be good.

[juilletmercredi]

A couple of thoughts.

1. You are spending a lot of time prejudging your graduate cohort without even having gotten to know them yet. You are already assuming that nobody in your cohort with be able to identify with you, that you won't be able to form any close bonds with them because you have different emotional needs, that nobody else had a childhood experience like yours. You can't know that up front, so stop making assumptions about people and get to know some folks. You might be surprised, because

2. Your childhood experiences are not that unique and actually probably more common than you'd think amongst very smart people. I only had one boyfriend from high school to college and had a social awkward upbringing in which I made few friends. I didn't learn how to make friendships until grad school, either. Lots of graduate students are socially awkward and have struggled with mental illness and physical disability.

3. "I think that everyone's happiness in a relationship depends critically on who the other person is and how he/she feels. It's just the nature of relationships." - Nope. It does in part, but a lot of success and happiness in relationships depends on you as well, and the expectations and assumptions you bring to it. I've been in a long-term relationship for 15 years and married for 4.

4. You seem to believe that you need to find someone who is almost exactly like you in order for things to work out. That's not necessarily true. There may be lots of people who have been in a few relationships or even have been married before but realized they were trapped in relationships that didn't work for them and are starting over. There are lots of people who may have changed their personality or behaviors drastically and are figuring out who they are socially again. This goes back to #1, about not making assumptions about people before you get the chance to get to know them.

5. I have to say, this emphasis on childishness and youth is really putting me off. Forgive me, but it sounds a bit creepy, honestly. You're not a child; it is very possible to be curious and vibrant and energetic and bright without being childlike, and there's no such think as a childlike romantic relationship. I'm assuming that you are an adult; you may not be as emotionally mature as other people are, but you don't want a childlike relationship. Relatedly,

6. As an adult, the chances of you finding this:

Basically, I'm envisioning someone for whom the whole idea of having a guy like her whom she likes back as being kind of "mythical", because it's something she's never experienced. Like, the girls around her have had boyfriends, but she never thought she'd have one herself. When a guy (hopefully me) finally likes her whom she like back, it would be an almost otherworldly experience.

are pretty small. Adults are, on average, more subdued than teenagers because they have learned how to deal with their emotions better, through experience. That doesn't mean that the answer is to seek out younger people, for a variety of reasons. More importantly, I think you need to examine why it's so important to you that the other person in your relationship is having the same kind of reactions and feelings to the relationship. Think about this: Would it be enough to you if you were dating someone that was simply happy to be with you and had a great time with you every time you were together? Why is it important that she finds you "mythical" or "otherworldly" (which is bordering on fantasy-land kind of desires, here)? Because this

I feel like I have to act really grown up in professional settings, so in romantic settings I want to be able to be myself, which includes being more childlike...It's more about not provoking my own sense of being an impostor in the adult world.

Is honestly not a particularly good answer. It's as if you don't want to be forced to deal with managing your emotional maturation as an adult...but you can't avoid that. You also cannot rely on your romantic partner to protect you from feeling awkward or out of place with adults. Going into a relationship with that kind of expectation is what I was referring to in #3 - that's the kind of thing that can ruin a relationship no matter how great your partner is, because you weigh it down with unrealistic expectations for what she can do with you. In order to go into a relationship with good chances of success, YOU have to already feel confident and ready and positive about yourself. If you are going in seeking validation for your awkwardness, you're starting off behind.

To that end, I agree with the above advice that you have to do well in other successful relationships before a romantic one, and the most important one is with yourself. You have to feel positive and amazing about yourself before you can go into a relationship expecting it to work out.

I recommend asking Captain Awkward for advice - or at least reading her archives. She would give you really excellent advice.

I like a decent number of Asian girls not because of some kind of fetishistic interest in Asian culture, but because of these cutesy features being more common among them.

That IS fetishistic. It's also stereotypical. If you know that it is extreme stereotyping, stop doing it.

[Visualizer]

On 10/7/2016 at 10:25 PM, juilletmercredi said:

It's as if you don't want to be forced to deal with managing your emotional maturation as an adult...but you can't avoid that. You also cannot rely on your romantic partner to protect you from feeling awkward or out of place with adults. Going into a relationship with that kind of expectation is what I was referring to in #3 - that's the kind of thing that can ruin a relationship no matter how great your partner is, because you weigh it down with unrealistic expectations for what she can do with you. 

 

She cannot make me feel any different when interacting with OTHER adults, but she can provide a kind of "oasis", a "safe space" if you will (I hate that word in general, but it fits here) where we can be there for each other in those moments we don't want to be in the adult world. She can go swinging on the swings at a playground with me, dream about unrealistic things without concern of whether they will ever come to be, play tag in a park, draw fantasy landscapes, or any number of other things. It would take a girl who's also behind in her emotional maturation, but at least I hope it's possible. 

[meep95]

It sounds like you have some stuff to work through....I would maybe recommend Counseling to help learn new ways to interact and socialize, since it sounds like thats what you think you are lacking.  you've said some things that contradict in this thread, I also think counseling could help you sort out how you actually feel with some of that. 

[spectastic]

i didn't read through all the comments, but here's my 2 cents after scanning through. take it with a grain of salt, because it's not coated in sugar

1. stop victimizing yourself. everyone has their problems. what makes the difference between those who make it out of their problems and those who don't is taking action, as opposed to complaining about how the world isn't bending to their will. I see social interaction as a workout. If I see a hot girl that I don't approach or at least talk to, that's an opportunity cost for me. Everyday, I get in my workout, so that I'm getting better, and not stagnating. 
2. go out and interact. I don't care if it's chess club, talking to random people on the streets, making comments about some girl's dress, sporting activities. get involved and talk to people. because there's no shortcut to getting reference experiences in social interactions. those who were raised in isolated environments (like I was) tend to be socially awkward, because they missed out on a lot of these reference experiences as children. You can, as I have over the years, catch up to the learning curve. But you have to take deliberate action to putting yourself out there. You're not going to get stephen colbert level charm overnight.
3. lower your expectations. Like I mentioned, the world is not going to bend to your will. your ideal person will not fall into your lap. Even if they do, your lack of experience and probable neediness stemming from the fear of losing him/her would chase that person away, or in the best case scenario, your relationship would be unhappy. healthy relationships come from a place of abundance, where the guy has options, the girl has options, and they choose each other, despite having other options. If you take the approach of "I want this type of person, and fuck everyone else, they suck," you're setting yourself up for a lot of alone time brother..
4. love everyone, even the haters. Even if someone's ugly, lacks personality, doesn't fit all your 'requirements' or 'standards,' they're still human beings like you and me. if you want to become good at making friends, you need to throw this mentality out the fucking window ASAP. last night, I was out with a friend. we were at a bar and he opened a girl, and I winged for him, by talking to the two friends. the girl he was talking to had all the good reactions. they ended up exchanging numbers. the girls I was talking to were total fucking zombies. one of them refused to even look at me, and responded to my questions with 1 word answers. The birthday girl was pretty much the same. they looked totally fucking miserable and didn't want to be there. Do I hate them for that? hell no. maybe they had a bad day, or one of them just broke up, or some other chode guy tried to hit on them earlier, or maybe I just didn't have enough enthusiasm in my approach, which I realized is something I need to work on. In any case, i helped my wing, learned something, and we went on to the next bar. In that situation, most people would've assumed that those ladies were total bitches for ignoring them, and that's the WRONG mentality to have. love everyone.
5. People have mirroring neurons in their brain, meaning they'll feel what you feel. If you're nervous, that has the tendency to make them nervous. If you look at the person across from you with disdain, they can sense that, and will likely reciprocate. these are biological features that have been shaped by evolution since the beginning of humans. this is important, because whatever you feel, the other person feels. if you approach a girl feeling anxious and nervous, she'll most likely be uncomfortable as well, and either brush you off, or ignore you. so get in a flow state to feel GOOD (this takes practice). the bigger takeaway here is humans have survived this long because we're social creatures, and those who suck at social skills got ostracized and eaten by lions. The fact that you're here today means you have the genes to be social, just like the rest of us. The problem is with smart phones, internet, etc, people have become socially conditioned to not socialize, which is sad, and the reason why problems like this exist. But you are already good enough, you just need to embrace it.

this is turning into a rant but if there's any takeaway, it's number 1. Take action!!

[ShewantsthePhD101]

...if the thought of dating inside academia didn't creep me out before, it certainly does now.