2022 Application Thread

[CoffeeCatsCorgis]

1 hour ago, charmsprof said:

While I did receive a rejection from Wisconsin-Madison... that can't bring me down because I got into the University of Oregon!!!!! I got the official letter today, and honestly, I am beyond excited.

Feel free to PM me about Oregon

[charmsprof]

1 hour ago, GradSchoolAndSuch said:

Okay, so I understand the realities associated with obtaining a history PhD and how it's grueling work for the duration of the program, and then basically impossible to obtain a tenure-track position once you're out. But I do wonder why we constantly talk about how getting a PhD in history is a "bad idea" and the "wrong choice." I can't speak on behalf of other people, but I feel as though we get enough of that from our family and friends.

I just don't understand why forums about getting a PhD in history need to be similarly discouraging. We are all here because we applied to PhD programs and hope to get in. We have already made the decision that it is right for us. Why do we need to be bombarded by kind internet strangers that are concerned for our well-being and decision-making abilities? We are all adults. We have read the statistics and are very much aware of what awaits us. Why can't this be a place where we celebrate each other for wanting to pursue something that we are truly, deeply passionate about?

I didn't see this! I definitely wanted to post something similar, but didn't feel it was my place. 

Expanding on this though -- I definitely get that the future after a PhD is not that bright. I still want a PhD in spite of that. I'm a first gen low ses college kid, where neither of my parents earned degrees after HS. Yes, I want to have a PhD to be a producer and disseminator of knowledge, to learn and read old documents and spark conversations. I want it for the reasons that most of us want it. However, at the end of the day -- I want it for me. 

We're all too stressed over notifications to deal with the doomsday stuff as well. If someone applied for a PhD without accepting that a TT job/academic job may not be their reality in the future, that's an individual thing. I spent the first semester... year... all of my MA hearing about how bad the job market is and all that. Just let people be happy. 

[saintesprit]

2 hours ago, medievalpeasant said:

Hey! Question for the Harvard admittances, did you portals update? Or just an email from POI?

Hi! I am one of them : ) my portal updated and I got an email notification to check it. 

[psstein]

3 hours ago, GradSchoolAndSuch said:

Okay, so I understand the realities associated with obtaining a history PhD and how it's grueling work for the duration of the program, and then basically impossible to obtain a tenure-track position once you're out. But I do wonder why we constantly talk about how getting a PhD in history is a "bad idea" and the "wrong choice." I can't speak on behalf of other people, but I feel as though we get enough of that from our family and friends.

I just don't understand why forums about getting a PhD in history need to be similarly discouraging. We are all here because we applied to PhD programs and hope to get in. We have already made the decision that it is right for us. Why do we need to be bombarded by kind internet strangers that are concerned for our well-being and decision-making abilities? We are all adults. We have read the statistics and are very much aware of what awaits us. Why can't this be a place where we celebrate each other for wanting to pursue something that we are truly, deeply passionate about?

The reason, for me at least, is that far too many people see earning a PhD as a continuation of undergrad-- a "next step" if you will. Many of them are bright, capable people who receive poor advice from often well-meaning faculty. As a result, there's an influx of folks every year ( @AP@TMP@dr. telkanuru @Sigaba almost certainly remember a few) who've incomplete understandings of how truly bad things are right now.

Many people, including current grad students, have illusions about their futures and prospects. I had one prospective student tell me, at a campus visit, "I could just go to X (a less prestigious institution) and just outwork everyone into a TT job." I had to stop myself from telling her "it doesn't fucking work like that."

It's also the case that many people interested in the process see the lack of direct financial cost and fail to take the massive opportunity costs of a PhD into account. You may not pay in dollars and cents, but you will pay in time, the one resource none of us will ever have more of. You'll also pay in deferred earnings and retirement.

An example: I left after my MA, for a variety of reasons I won't discuss here. I now work as a mid-level consultant for a major professional services firm. Many of my colleagues in the same role are a year or two younger than me. Many of the people my age are one step up (or about to be one step up). The pay differential between my current role and the step up is about $15,000. I had a $30,000 opportunity cost (potentially even more) when I went to grad school.

[TMP]

3 hours ago, GradSchoolAndSuch said:

Okay, so I understand the realities associated with obtaining a history PhD and how it's grueling work for the duration of the program, and then basically impossible to obtain a tenure-track position once you're out. But I do wonder why we constantly talk about how getting a PhD in history is a "bad idea" and the "wrong choice." I can't speak on behalf of other people, but I feel as though we get enough of that from our family and friends.

I just don't understand why forums about getting a PhD in history need to be similarly discouraging. We are all here because we applied to PhD programs and hope to get in. We have already made the decision that it is right for us. Why do we need to be bombarded by kind internet strangers that are concerned for our well-being and decision-making abilities? We are all adults. We have read the statistics and are very much aware of what awaits us. Why can't this be a place where we celebrate each other for wanting to pursue something that we are truly, deeply passionate about?

Since @pssteinpulled me in a bit, I'll offer another perspective.  I am in my first year as a Visiting Assistant Professor teaching 6 courses/year total.  I applied to 19 academic opportunities before landing this job (and had 2 subsequent interviews to see if they were better fit/make a better offer, neither panned out).  I never planned to become a professor but I discovered ways that made being a professor seem like a good path to take in addition to others I thought about.  My original goal was to work in a museum's academic research center but a lot happened in that place during those 7-8 years and it got to the point where I really don't want to work there right now.  Also, I finished and defended my dissertation in middle of a pandemic so the economy was/is in total shambles. So I took the first job offer, which was this one.

Do I have regret of doing my PhD? No. I was very lucky in many, many ways -- having excellent faculty support, out-of-the-world advisers, excellent record of funding, and fulfillment of one of my life dreams (traveling around the world, literally!).

Am I upset about the financial opportunity costs that @pssteinmentioned?  A bit. While my salary as a VAP is a serious boost from my grad salary and quite livable here, I wish I had a bit more money to be able to travel for a vacation and not have more savings than in the past.

To offer an insider's take.

I did try to discourage a very bright student of my own, who decided to apply to a PhD program after he took my class and go straight after graduation (in a different discipline, however). The real reason, that I just did not have the heart to tell him, is that the realities of the academic job market are that underrepresented groups are hot, hot, hot for hiring. (This student did not fit in any of the groups). In my opinion, it is absolutely fair that underrepresented applicants should get looked at more seriously because undergraduates want professors who "look like them" and these groups have been ignored and underappreciated for far too long. I am a member of two categories and I completely understand and it's why I am here and fighting the job market. While my student decided to forge ahead, I adjusted my approach to focus on teaching him how to "be an informed consumer" as I have done on these boards since 2009 and he has appreciated my mentoring.  He has gotten into 2 PhD programs so far and I'm happy for him.

Am I being discriminating? Are we being discriminating? Yes and no.  Our generations (millennial and Gen Z) are victims of an entrenched old boys' network that needs to be dismantled in order to make room for those who do not conform to upper class, white cishet male ideal; those who would not otherwise have a chance to enter in academia, say, 15-20 years ago. As a PhD applicant, I saw sexism and ableism firsthand and I am telling you, these behaviors -- committed by older cishet while men -- were so gross and offensive, and I want to see less of such people in the future. I was intentional in finding professors who would accept my background and be advocates (I did a lot of informational interviews. The only men who made the cut were Gen X!).

Bottom line, in my POV, if you are upper class white cishet male applicant, you need to think very hard how you will contribute to making academia a better place and support students from a wide range of backgrounds. Use your privilege, not abuse.

[dr. t]

1 hour ago, psstein said:

As a result, there's an influx of folks every year ( @AP@TMP@dr. telkanuru @Sigaba almost certainly remember a few) who've incomplete understandings of how truly bad things are right now.

I would put it differently. Every year, there's one or two people who understand that other people aren't special, but still think that they are special. Or they think "it's about the journey not the destination" as they go to a state school satellite campus where they're instructor of record after the first year for $18k/yr.  

[anxiouslurker]

10 hours ago, charmsprof said:

I didn't see this! I definitely wanted to post something similar, but didn't feel it was my place. 

Expanding on this though -- I definitely get that the future after a PhD is not that bright. I still want a PhD in spite of that. I'm a first gen low ses college kid, where neither of my parents earned degrees after HS. Yes, I want to have a PhD to be a producer and disseminator of knowledge, to learn and read old documents and spark conversations. I want it for the reasons that most of us want it. However, at the end of the day -- I want it for me. 

We're all too stressed over notifications to deal with the doomsday stuff as well. If someone applied for a PhD without accepting that a TT job/academic job may not be their reality in the future, that's an individual thing. I spent the first semester... year... all of my MA hearing about how bad the job market is and all that. Just let people be happy. 

I agree! Most of us are here to navigate grad admissions, so the balance has felt a little off on this forum. While advice from those who have already been admitted and/or completed grad school is, of course, needed, we don’t need to feel any more stressed or demoralized during the application process. Most of us (myself included) don’t need an extra reminder that we aren’t special or the exception as a lot of the schools we applied for are already letting us know that lol 

As others have noted, we’re adults who’ve done our research. We’ve heard the anecdotal warnings (there’s already been plenty provided on this forum), seen the dire statistics, and have decided to apply anyways for a variety of reasons. The vast majority of users I’ve seen seem realistic and aware of the risks and likely outcomes of getting a Ph.D. I appreciate feeling the need to inform others about the exploitative nature of the academy, but these warnings occasionally have patronizing tones and are often extraneous and/or repetitive. 

[automatic_peas]

Has anyone heard from Yale HSHM? 

[dr. t]

3 hours ago, anxiouslurker said:

I agree! Most of us are here to navigate grad admissions, so the balance has felt a little off on this forum. While advice from those who have already been admitted and/or completed grad school is, of course, needed, we don’t need to feel any more stressed or demoralized during the application process. Most of us (myself included) don’t need an extra reminder that we aren’t special or the exception as a lot of the schools we applied for are already letting us know that lol 

As others have noted, we’re adults who’ve done our research. We’ve heard the anecdotal warnings (there’s already been plenty provided on this forum), seen the dire statistics, and have decided to apply anyways for a variety of reasons. The vast majority of users I’ve seen seem realistic and aware of the risks and likely outcomes of getting a Ph.D. I appreciate feeling the need to inform others about the exploitative nature of the academy, but these warnings occasionally have patronizing tones and are often extraneous and/or repetitive. 

[kapuzenernie]

This probably says more about my own personal situation than it does any general trend, but I would really love to know where all these supposedly lucrative non-academic jobs are. I've been out of school for three years now and have yet to break $20k/year despite working full-time. If I get into PhD program not only will I have a guaranteed, stable income, but I will also have health insurance. For someone with my background that in and of itself is enough reason to pursue the PhD, putting aside the fact that it is something that I am passionate about. Also, I think for many of us hopefuls it's difficult to swallow this advice from current students because obviously you also disregarded this advice when you were applying. Just some 2¢ from a lurker. 

[TMP]

1 minute ago, kapuzenernie said:

This probably says more about my own personal situation than it does any general trend, but I would really love to know where all these supposedly lucrative non-academic jobs are. 

they're in engineering and tech sectors... we're in a neoliberal economy where love/passion for something gets exploited with low pay. meanwhile, tech is the future!

[Go Weast Young Man]

3 minutes ago, TMP said:

they're in engineering and tech sectors... we're in a neoliberal economy where love/passion for something gets exploited with low pay. meanwhile, tech is the future!

For the kind of people who are interested in history grad school, would particularly recommend looking at legal jobs. A lot of people think you need to go to law school and become a lawyer to make money there, but lots of paralegal and even legal assistant jobs (which hire tons of people with humanities\social sciences BAs and no direct experience) pay perfectly good money with health insurance\benefits and room for advancement to be making in your late 20s way more than you would make as a tenured professor

[anxiouslurker]

1 hour ago, dr. telkanuru said:

Funny memes, but those of us who voiced concern weren’t doing so based on a false, naive view of the academy or our trajectories within it. As a longtime lurker, I've seen a lot of patronizing attitudes and what appears to be personal bitterness hidden under the guise of concern. We’ve done our research, accepted the risk, and understand the financial consequences since that seems to be what the forum is most concerned about right now. Still, we've chosen to apply in spite of the academy's dire state (as I’m assuming you also did before choosing to get your Ph.D.). Everyone has a different financial situation and doing a PhD is going to mean different things for different people of different backgrounds. If you're from the upper middle class in Boston where PhDs are a dime a dozen, getting one feels different than if you're from the Imperial Valley of California. Doing one has different financial costs for students with debt/no debt, students at schools with stipends that match the area's cost of living vs low stipend schools, and students in growing fields (i.e., African American history) vs shrinking fields (i.e., medieval history), etc.

Again, this is a website primarily for those currently navigating the application process. Especially as a woman, I don't need another space in academia where a man centers himself when it isn't about him and uses his experience, Ph.D., etc. as an excuse to be dismissive and patronizing. That might sound harsh or like I'm pulling "the woman card," but I'm being 100% genuine when I say that. 

[dr. t]

14 minutes ago, anxiouslurker said:

As a longtime lurker, I've seen a lot of patronizing attitudes and what appears to be personal bitterness hidden under the guise of concern. 

If you're a longtime lurker, you have been around long enough to hear three or four PhD-seekers state that they know what they're in for, push on through the advice they get, and then slowly become bitter, regretful, and burnt out. It's hard not to see a repeating pattern of people doing the second meme and thinking they're special.

[emeraldsapphire]

It seems that there are competing ideas about what this thread should be used for. Would it be possible to have a thread (this current one or another) devoted simply to people who want to discuss the application process/notifications/decisions and another for people who want to give or solicit advice about whether one should do a PhD vis-a-vis the job market? I think that could diffuse a lot of tension on here. 

[TexasTiger]

1 minute ago, emeraldsapphire said:

It seems that there are competing ideas about what this thread should be used for. Would it be possible to have a thread (this current one or another) devoted simply to people who want to discuss the application process/notifications/decisions and another for people who want to give or solicit advice about whether one should do a PhD vis-a-vis the job market? I think that could diffuse a lot of tension on here. 

I agree with this idea! I think letting these two different topics occur in a single thread can create unnecessary hostility and brings forth the potential for toxicity.

[charmsprof]

44 minutes ago, kapuzenernie said:

but I will also have health insurance

The sweet, sweet relief of health insurance. I honestly keep forgetting about this because every program I applied to has it, but... yeah... I haven't had insurance for a hot second. 

PhDs can be a hot mess and unsustainable after you're done, but I've worked for the past 4-ish years without any sort of health insurance. Hell, my program does partial tuition waivers, and the only reason that grad school was affordable for me is because I was offered a lot of fellowship money with my initial offer. A stable income (that is around or surpasses cost of living) with insurance feels worth it. In addition to the other stuff. 

 

3 minutes ago, emeraldsapphire said:

It seems that there are competing ideas about what this thread should be used for. Would it be possible to have a thread (this current one or another) devoted simply to people who want to discuss the application process/notifications/decisions and another for people who want to give or solicit advice about whether one should do a PhD vis-a-vis the job market? I think that could diffuse a lot of tension on here. 

Yeah, I think the thread should be broken into two. 

[anxiouslurker]

1 minute ago, dr. telkanuru said:

If you're a longtime lurker, you have been around long enough to hear three or four PhD-seekers state that they know what they're in for, push on through the advice they get, and then slowly become bitter, regretful, and burnt out. It's hard not to see a repeating pattern of people thinking they're special.

Yes, but I wasn't one of them. My concerns shouldn't be automatically and unfairly lumped in with them and dismissed.

It's concerning that the recent race/diversity hiring comment received the least amount of attention and pushback out of all the posts in this particular discussion. In a lot of ways, Grad Cafe often feels like an extension of the old boy's club. I hope we can all work to make this a more fair and equitable space as the academy is already problematic enough as it is. I agree with the other users suggesting that we divide up the forum more neatly. 

[kapuzenernie]

51 minutes ago, TMP said:

they're in engineering and tech sectors... we're in a neoliberal economy where love/passion for something gets exploited with low pay. meanwhile, tech is the future!

So what's the solution? Go back to school for a second bachelor's and more debt? Spend a couple thousand (that I don't have) on a coding course? Attempt to force myself to do something I have no aptitude for? I think my ultimate frustration with this conversation is that time and time again people suggest alternative career tracks that also involve considerable personal sacrifice, investment, and debt. 

[charmsprof]

2 minutes ago, anxiouslurker said:

It's concerning that the recent race/diversity hiring comment received the least amount of attention and pushback out of all the posts in this particular discussion. In a lot of ways, Grad Cafe often feels like an extension of the old boy's club. I hope we can all work to make this a more fair and equitable space as the academy is already problematic enough as it is. I agree with the other users suggesting that we divide up the forum more neatly. 

To out myself, I am one of the people that is impacted by the race/diversity comment. I literally had a professor get a tap on the hand and quietly sat out for allowing a bunch of racist shit to happen in a grad seminar for AA history... and he's a professor/scholar of AA history... as a cishet white male. I literally heard that someone said a slur in a grad seminar last night for no reason. Too many institutions have not enough diversity as part of their faculty, and if they do, it's at the expense of people lost in the intersections. As a black femme, I want to see faculty representation reflect the students that they are serving. Especially in light of everything going on right now in the academy.

However, to be quite frank, I think everyone just needs to take a break from this thread for a day... unless you're asking about notifications/application stuff. Message people if you have questions about anything specific that was posted, but it just feels like there's a lot of hostility, and I ... don't come on here for that. I come on here to be surrounded by other anxious people that just want answers about what their trajectory looks like for the future. This isn't to negate advice, demean anyone, however, it is to acknowledge that I think we all just need a break right now. However, I will also echo sentiments that there is a post here that felt really demeaning and reeked of privilege.  

You can't expect for others to give you grace if you are being a butt and giving snarky advice to people who didn't even ask for it. 

[dr. t]

7 minutes ago, kapuzenernie said:

So what's the solution?

The solution to what? Having a BA in history? 

 

12 minutes ago, anxiouslurker said:

Yes, but I wasn't one of them. My concerns shouldn't be automatically and unfairly lumped in with them and dismissed.

It's concerning that the recent race/diversity hiring comment received the least amount of attention and pushback out of all the posts in this particular discussion. In a lot of ways, Grad Cafe often feels like an extension of the old boy's club. I hope we can all work to make this a more fair and equitable space as the academy is already problematic enough as it is. I agree with the other users suggesting that we divide up the forum more neatly. 

I don't know you. No one here knows you, no should they. Since that's the case, at best, what you get here is advice based on probabilities, not tailored to your individual experience and ability. And some people are actually special, and go immediately to a TT job after a 5 year PhD. One of my cohort-mates did last year. I'm certainly at least very lucky. But for anyone on a forum to suggest that you might be special, to give you hope, is quite simply academic malpractice. 

I'm honestly not sure what post you're talking about, but GC is the opposite of a good old boys' club. The good old boys aren't here. They don't need to go on the internet for advice on how to do a PhD, they already know. Most people on this forum are first generation (PhD, if not college), and/or have taken unusual paths to get where they are. 

[TexasTiger]

Has anyone heard from Northwestern?

[jpc34]

4 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Has anyone heard from Northwestern?

No, but I sure would like to!

[charmsprof]

7 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Has anyone heard from Northwestern?

No ? I keep checking the app portal

edit -- also is the Michigan person here? If yes, would you be willing to elaborate on what you posted?

Edited February 8, 2022 by charmsprof

[anxiouslurker]

51 minutes ago, dr. telkanuru said:

The solution to what? Having a BA in history? 

 

I don't know you. No one here knows you, no should they. Since that's the case, at best, what you get here is advice based on probabilities, not tailored to your individual experience and ability. And some people are actually special, and go immediately to a TT job after a 5 year PhD. One of my cohort-mates did last year. I'm certainly at least very lucky. But for anyone on a forum to suggest that you might be special, to give you hope, is quite simply academic malpractice. 

I'm honestly not sure what post you're talking about, but GC is the opposite of a good old boys' club. The good old boys aren't here. They don't need to go on the internet for advice on how to do a PhD, they already know. Most people on this forum are first generation (PhD, if not college), and/or have taken unusual paths to get where they are. 

No one in this thread is suggesting I'm "special" or giving me hope of a TT job here, nor am I asking them to. I've already addressed these strawmen and red herrings several times now, and I don't think it's worthwhile for me to continue this conversation. 

As for my good old boys comment, several of us have expressed frustration today because this forum has been mostly dominated (in often unhealthy ways) by those who have a Ph.D. and "already know" all of the advice. I suggest you listen to the women and people of color who've begun to express how they feel differently about this space. Most importantly, I'm very disturbed by the diversity comment posted today and the initial lack of reaction to it. This forum won't improve if criticism is met with gaslighting, strawmen, etc. I've read about your path to the Ph.D. on this forum, and although I still don't know the intricacies of your personal history beyond what you've already shared here, I know you're a white man with a Ph.D. from an ivy. Like all of us (myself included), you have certain privileges and blind spots. 

You frequently remind us all that we aren't "special," but that same truth should lead the more seasoned users to act with humility and grace when interacting with others. Moving forward, it seems like many of us who're truly using this platform as it's intended want things to change as far as attitudes and the focus/organization of this forum. We've all read and presumably benefitted from the statistics and experiences shared by the more established users that are meant to warn us, so perhaps starting to share them more on the appropriate threads or websites would be a good first step. There needs to be healthier outlets for those of us who rightly feel burned, bitter, and disappointed due to the state of the academy to work through through issues. As I noted earlier, I'm stepping away from this discussion for now. I hope to see this forum becomes a more positive, balanced, and equitable space

Edited February 8, 2022 by anxiouslurker