Fall 2021 Clinical & Counseling PhD/PsyD

[PsychProf]

A couple of people made similar comments so I'm going to do a general reply-

I am trying to be sensitive to folks having different opportunities but also there are minimum requirements for at least some types of programs (like mine). If you want to serve people as a clinician you should strongly consider master's degrees. Many of the clinicians in my city are LCSWs or LPCs. This is a shorter and less competitive route, and you will be able to meet the mental health needs that we all know are out there. Clinical psych admissions processes absolutely do limit who becomes clinical psychologists, but many clinical psychologists go into research and admin positions. If you want to be a clinician there are many other options.

I think this is probably going to come across as ruder than I mean, but this is not an easy path. If it was easy, many more people would have PhDs in clinical psychology. I switched majors and found a lab at my R1 undergrad that wasn't in my exact interest area (not clinical psych) but it was experience, and with my other credentials I was admitted to an R1 Phd program in clinical psych. Now this wasn't in 2020-21, but it wasn't in 1980 either. I did work during undergrad but it was more to support my lifestyle than my actual life so I don't claim to have that experience, but my students now do sometimes work nearly full-time on top of being in a lab as a volunteer and other things. They also sometimes start at a CC and transfer and are trying to catch up by joining a lab ASAP. It's not easy, but it's what's required if you want to go down this path. I also said this before but I'll say it again because I'm not sure people noted it- you do not need years of RA experience and tons of publications to get admitted. You need some, but the bar is not that unrealistically high at many places. At some top schools and some top labs, yes, but at other places a couple of conference presentations might be perfectly fine if other things fit well.

I'm also a little unfamiliar with the concept of an R1 as out of reach for folks for personal (not academic) reasons. I know all education is getting expensive everywhere, but every state has a state university system and in-state tuition. I actually think of R1s as equalizers because it's not like you have to go to Harvard to get ahead. U of Illinois or U of Montana should be perfectly fine because there will be researchers on faculty there, and it seems like a better investment of loans or whatever you have to go to UW-Madison than UW-Parkside if you have aspirations beyond college in higher ed. 

And for folks who don't or can't meet the typical standards- hope is not lost. I did go to grad school right out of undergrad but then I twiddled my thumbs a little while there, stayed longer than I could have, went to a clinical internship that was not a great fit, and postdoc-ed for years before my TT position. If I had done everything right I could have had an easier time on the TT job market than I did. I got where I wanted to be, but I had to do it in a more roundabout way than I would advise. It's possible.

[Chugwater2020]

3 hours ago, EyelandPychePhD said:

Hey- Thank you, That does help! The fact that the interview invite date says 2/5 is making me nervous because it's getting to be short notice if that date is correct! However, since interviews are virtual, maybe short notice is the norm because applicants aren't flying in from other locations.... 

I also emailed CSU and received this response last night: 

The Admissions Committee should be sending out invitations for interviews in the next week.  They have not confirmed if that (Feb.5th) will be the official interview date yet.  Due to Covid, everything has been on a different time frame this year as it takes a little longer to get things done remotely.

[clinical_sike]

Although I have only received one interview to a fully funded PhD program thus far, I am feeling so hopeful today! I just received an interview for a promising research assistantship in my area of interest. I am so happy and excited! Thank you to everyone who provided advice related to backup plans. I believe that my plan will be to do research for another year before reapplying for my second cycle. I now realize that I definitely need more than 1.5 years of research experience to apply for doctoral programs.

I am making peace with the fact that this year might not be my year. However, I am so proud of everyone who is in the midst of their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th application cycles who are finally receiving the interviews that they deserve. You guys inspire me.

[EyelandPychePhD]

6 minutes ago, Chugwater2020 said:

I also emailed CSU and received this response last night: 

The Admissions Committee should be sending out invitations for interviews in the next week.  They have not confirmed if that (Feb.5th) will be the official interview date yet.  Due to Covid, everything has been on a different time frame this year as it takes a little longer to get things done remotely.

Hey, thanks Chugwater2020- That's some good news, right?? No need to be freaking out quite yet, based on that response ?. I really hope they change the from 2/5 to a little later, giving us all a little more time to prepare....

(Tagging anairakk below so that they see this:)

3 hours ago, anairakk said:

Hi there, I actually emailed them after I posted that and the admissions office said “the Counseling Admissions office is still reviewing applications. I anticipate offers will be sent out very soon in the coming weeks.” That was sent on last Tuesday. Hope this helps  

Edited January 26, 2021 by EyelandPychePhD

[PsychApplicant2]

35 minutes ago, PsychProf said:

A couple of people made similar comments so I'm going to do a general reply-

I am trying to be sensitive to folks having different opportunities but also there are minimum requirements for at least some types of programs (like mine). If you want to serve people as a clinician you should strongly consider master's degrees. Many of the clinicians in my city are LCSWs or LPCs. This is a shorter and less competitive route, and you will be able to meet the mental health needs that we all know are out there. Clinical psych admissions processes absolutely do limit who becomes clinical psychologists, but many clinical psychologists go into research and admin positions. If you want to be a clinician there are many other options.

I think this is probably going to come across as ruder than I mean, but this is not an easy path. If it was easy, many more people would have PhDs in clinical psychology. I switched majors and found a lab at my R1 undergrad that wasn't in my exact interest area (not clinical psych) but it was experience, and with my other credentials I was admitted to an R1 Phd program in clinical psych. Now this wasn't in 2020-21, but it wasn't in 1980 either. I did work during undergrad but it was more to support my lifestyle than my actual life so I don't claim to have that experience, but my students now do sometimes work nearly full-time on top of being in a lab as a volunteer and other things. They also sometimes start at a CC and transfer and are trying to catch up by joining a lab ASAP. It's not easy, but it's what's required if you want to go down this path. I also said this before but I'll say it again because I'm not sure people noted it- you do not need years of RA experience and tons of publications to get admitted. You need some, but the bar is not that unrealistically high at many places. At some top schools and some top labs, yes, but at other places a couple of conference presentations might be perfectly fine if other things fit well.

I'm also a little unfamiliar with the concept of an R1 as out of reach for folks for personal (not academic) reasons. I know all education is getting expensive everywhere, but every state has a state university system and in-state tuition. I actually think of R1s as equalizers because it's not like you have to go to Harvard to get ahead. U of Illinois or U of Montana should be perfectly fine because there will be researchers on faculty there, and it seems like a better investment of loans or whatever you have to go to UW-Madison than UW-Parkside if you have aspirations beyond college in higher ed. 

And for folks who don't or can't meet the typical standards- hope is not lost. I did go to grad school right out of undergrad but then I twiddled my thumbs a little while there, stayed longer than I could have, went to a clinical internship that was not a great fit, and postdoc-ed for years before my TT position. If I had done everything right I could have had an easier time on the TT job market than I did. I got where I wanted to be, but I had to do it in a more roundabout way than I would advise. It's possible.

I don’t think you’re being rude! I just wish that more faculty would take into consideration the barriers that the clinical psych application has (maybe even try to fix them?). I just personally am dumbfounded when I see people with good experience, coupled with passion and drive, get rejected from programs that are a good fit. It’s definitely not an easy path by any means, and I really don’t know how we can fix it without more funding. Of course, we can actually start to look holistically at applicants, and the removal of the GRE this cycle was a good first start. It also doesn’t help when people get into programs solely due to connections - but I assume we can’t do anything about that, as it is a common thread in almost every field in academia ?. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by PsychApplicant2

[clinical_sike]

2 hours ago, PsychProf said:

Everybody doesn't need to have 3 publications or years of RA experience, but doing a poster on campus one time (or not even that) just doesn't provide evidence that you have the chops to do the research component of your work in a PhD program. If you don't have that experience or don't want to get it then you should consider PsyDs or master's programs.

This, this, this, and this. When I began my search of graduate programs, I thought my 4.0 GPA and year's worth of research experience at a small liberal arts college made me a very competitive applicant, in addition to my diverse background. Contrary to what I thought I knew, I am not a competitive applicant, lol. I would say I am a mediocre applicant. Please do your research before spending the time/money/energy on clinical PhD applications. This person is so right-- if your main goal is to do clinical work and you do not like to do research, there are so many other options (e.g., clinical social work, professional counseling)! Many Ph.D. programs are so research-oriented that they advise those who wish to become clinicians not to apply to their program. There are so many other paths to become a clinician!

[kch16]

41 minutes ago, PsychApplicant2 said:

I don’t think you’re being rude! I just wish that more faculty would take into consideration the barriers that the clinical psych application has (maybe even try to fix them?). I just personally am dumbfounded when I see people with good experience, coupled with passion and drive, get rejected from programs that are a good fit. It’s definitely not an easy path by any means, and I really don’t know how we can fix it without more funding. Of course, we can actually start to look holistically at applicants, and the removal of the GRE this cycle was a good first start. It also doesn’t help when people get into programs solely due to connections - but I assume we can’t do anything about that, as it is a common thread in almost every field in academia ?. 

Agreed- I also didn't think you were being rude! I think the point we're making is that when to be competitive you need a background that requires years of planning, money, and time, "competition" = disproportionate lack of accessibility. No one necessarily wants the path to be "easier", though framing it that way to me feels slightly elitist, as if the only/best path to achieve one's goals is the current one (and that any alternatives would be less respected somehow).

I just think the mentor model is severely outdated given that the needs of the community and the number of people entering the field overwhelmingly outweigh the number of faculty.

Edited January 26, 2021 by kch16

[Chugwater2020]

51 minutes ago, EyelandPychePhD said:

Hey, thanks Chugwater2020- That's some good news, right?? No need to be freaking out quite yet, based on that response ?. I really hope they change the from 2/5 to a little later, giving us all a little more time to prepare....

(Tagging anairakk below so that they see this:)

 

52 minutes ago, EyelandPychePhD said:

Hey, thanks Chugwater2020- That's some good news, right?? No need to be freaking out quite yet, based on that response ?. I really hope they change the from 2/5 to a little later, giving us all a little more time to prepare....

(Tagging anairakk below so that they see this:)

I take it as good insight, for sure!  Now we just need to keep in touch with each other if we do hear anything. 

[NotYourMothersGrad]

On the note of competitiveness, diversity, and disadvantages - have any of you who have interviewed noticed just how many white applicants and white grad students there are in the labs you're applying to? I know whiteness doesn't = inherent advantages 100% of the time, but it feels very weird to me the faculty, current grad, and applicant racial and diversity background that still seems homogenous..

Edited January 26, 2021 by NotYourMothersGrad

[DigitalBuddha]

I saw on the results page CSU has started sending out interviews- is that real?

[venus rose]

Rosalind Franklin University - although the application instructions say 3.2 Undergrad min required, I strongly suspect they might still consider your application if you have something that makes up for it. 

 

Just FYI for anyone applying to the school. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by venus rose

[EileanDonan]

3 minutes ago, venus rose said:

Rosalind Franklin University - although the application instructions say 3.0 Undergrad min required, I strongly suspect they might still consider your application if you have something that makes up for it. 

 

Just FYI for anyone applying to the school. 

I applied here actually! Haven't heard back though - do you have any insight as to their interview invite timeline?

Edited January 26, 2021 by EileanDonan

[venus rose]

Just now, EileanDonan said:

I applied here actually! Haven't heard back though - do you have any insight as to their interview timeline?

Yeah I didn't hear back from them so I contacted the POI directly. I would encourage you to do the same. 

[spring2000]

31 minutes ago, NotYourMothersGrad said:

On the note of competitiveness, diversity, and disadvantages - have any of you who have interviewed noticed just how many white applicants and white grad students there are in the labs you're applying to? I know whiteness doesn't = inherent advantages 100% of the time, but it feels very weird to me the faculty, current grad, and applicant racial and diversity background that still seems homogenous..

In some of the places I've interviewed, all of the other applicants to the PI's lab were Black, so I think it partially depends on the PI and whether they prioritize URM inclusion. These were also programs with a pretty diverse faculty and student body, so that probably played a role as well

[K31D1Psych]

2 hours ago, PsychProf said:

A couple of people made similar comments so I'm going to do a general reply-

I am trying to be sensitive to folks having different opportunities but also there are minimum requirements for at least some types of programs (like mine). If you want to serve people as a clinician you should strongly consider master's degrees. Many of the clinicians in my city are LCSWs or LPCs. This is a shorter and less competitive route, and you will be able to meet the mental health needs that we all know are out there. Clinical psych admissions processes absolutely do limit who becomes clinical psychologists, but many clinical psychologists go into research and admin positions. If you want to be a clinician there are many other options.

I think this is probably going to come across as ruder than I mean, but this is not an easy path. If it was easy, many more people would have PhDs in clinical psychology. I switched majors and found a lab at my R1 undergrad that wasn't in my exact interest area (not clinical psych) but it was experience, and with my other credentials I was admitted to an R1 Phd program in clinical psych. Now this wasn't in 2020-21, but it wasn't in 1980 either. I did work during undergrad but it was more to support my lifestyle than my actual life so I don't claim to have that experience, but my students now do sometimes work nearly full-time on top of being in a lab as a volunteer and other things. They also sometimes start at a CC and transfer and are trying to catch up by joining a lab ASAP. It's not easy, but it's what's required if you want to go down this path. I also said this before but I'll say it again because I'm not sure people noted it- you do not need years of RA experience and tons of publications to get admitted. You need some, but the bar is not that unrealistically high at many places. At some top schools and some top labs, yes, but at other places a couple of conference presentations might be perfectly fine if other things fit well.

I'm also a little unfamiliar with the concept of an R1 as out of reach for folks for personal (not academic) reasons. I know all education is getting expensive everywhere, but every state has a state university system and in-state tuition. I actually think of R1s as equalizers because it's not like you have to go to Harvard to get ahead. U of Illinois or U of Montana should be perfectly fine because there will be researchers on faculty there, and it seems like a better investment of loans or whatever you have to go to UW-Madison than UW-Parkside if you have aspirations beyond college in higher ed. 

And for folks who don't or can't meet the typical standards- hope is not lost. I did go to grad school right out of undergrad but then I twiddled my thumbs a little while there, stayed longer than I could have, went to a clinical internship that was not a great fit, and postdoc-ed for years before my TT position. If I had done everything right I could have had an easier time on the TT job market than I did. I got where I wanted to be, but I had to do it in a more roundabout way than I would advise. It's possible.

I don't think you sound rude at all. I was going to write a bit of a similar post but didn't want to come off as rude either haha and don't have the bandwidth or need to spend too much time on this forum. I agree for people who want to be a clinician that there are tons of options (albeit they are often unfunded options, which is for another discussion). I find that PhD typically pursue research, professorship and admin positions. I was going to say this too. Also agree with a previous post of yours where you described common problems. I have had similar thoughts. 

Not that you are saying our problem with the process is that it is "too hard," and I did not take it as you saying that at all, but my problem with the admission process is that things like the GRE tend to weed out specific groups (e.g., disabled, BIPOC) and could have weeded me out entirely despite my 4.0 GPA, publication, research grant, great fit etc. I posted about that a few weeks ago and described my story with that. Some programs indeed do go by a specific cut off for the GRE. I know of many. I don't want it to be easier as much as things like the GRE are uneeded and based on privledge yet there is a bias in favor of it.

(I do agree that many people may not understand PhD vs PsyD vs LMSW, etc... and the intricacies that really go into being in a PhD program, and that there is a hype about PhD when someone could reach their goals with another degree, etc). I find this is the case with many peers I talk to. I find some people feel a PhD is the option to reach their goals but then can't really clearly describe their research interests to me, or they hint that they are more interested in practice. Other degrees are just as great. They're just different and depends on what someone wants for their career.

Thanks for posting! 

Edited January 26, 2021 by K31D1Psych

[NotYourMothersGrad]

3 minutes ago, spring2000 said:

In some of the places I've interviewed, all of the other applicants to the PI's lab were Black, so I think it partially depends on the PI and whether they prioritize URM inclusion. These were also programs with a pretty diverse faculty and student body, so that probably played a role as well

That is super interesting and not like my experience at all! So thanks for sharing. It most likely is the places I'm applying to, but seeing as the norm is to apply to PIs and not schools, I figured it would average out despite being schools with majority white undergrads. I come from a HACU and seeing white people throughout the applicants and departments for most places has been very odd to me.

[spring2000]

11 minutes ago, NotYourMothersGrad said:

That is super interesting and not like my experience at all! So thanks for sharing. It most likely is the places I'm applying to, but seeing as the norm is to apply to PIs and not schools, I figured it would average out despite being schools with majority white undergrads. I come from a HACU and seeing white people throughout the applicants and departments for most places has been very odd to me.

Those were the only Black PIs I interviewed with tho, so I think your experience is probably the norm. I attend a PWI so it was actually a pleasant surprise for me lol

[anindianchick]

15 hours ago, PyschMama said:

Anyone here apply to Fordham Counseling PhD? 

Me! I haven't heard anything and assumed a rejection, tbh.

Because I saw on the results page someone had posted that they got a "Generic rejection email. Also says no more interview invites will go out."

Edited January 26, 2021 by anindianchick

[Biopsychosocialyzing]

13 minutes ago, anindianchick said:

Me! I haven't heard anything and assumed a rejection, tbh.

Because I saw on the results page someone had posted that they got a "Generic rejection email. Also says no more interview invites will go out."

Am almost sure they meant clinical and not counseling since counseling apparently hasn’t extended any interviews yet but clinical sent out that rejection email that the poster mentioned. 

[anindianchick]

Just now, PyschMama said:

Am almost sure they meant clinical and not counseling since counseling apparently hasn’t extended any interviews yet but clinical sent out that rejection email that the poster mentioned. 

Oh! Got it. Well, then, I'm hopeful! 

[JoePianist]

3 hours ago, NotYourMothersGrad said:

On the note of competitiveness, diversity, and disadvantages - have any of you who have interviewed noticed just how many white applicants and white grad students there are in the labs you're applying to? I know whiteness doesn't = inherent advantages 100% of the time, but it feels very weird to me the faculty, current grad, and applicant racial and diversity background that still seems homogenous..

Yeah, it’s been that way in the psychology field pretty much forever ? 

[Psy-aye-aye]

The one time I went to my email for a reason other than grad app stuff, I saw an invitation to interview at La Verne's Clinical Psych PsyD! Their interview dates are Feb 5th, 6th, and 12th. My notes from the info session are that they generally have ~120 applicants, offer 50-60 interviews, and have a cohort size of 12-14 students.

[EyelandPychePhD]

3 hours ago, DigitalBuddha said:

I saw on the results page CSU has started sending out interviews- is that real?

It could be real. I refresh the CSU Counseling Psyche results section periodically, and I’m pretty sure that the 3 interview invitees who posted all did so a little after 6pm Mountain Time. That makes me wonder if the faculty met this afternoon, and perhaps one PI sent out interview invites after business hours. Perhaps other PI’s who prefer to send professional emails during business hours only may opt to send their out tomorrow. Alternatively, the 3 interview invite posts on the results page could have been a troll (Though I don’t believe that is the case). Based on the intel gathered so far, CSU Counseling is supposed to send interview invites by the end of this week. So any day now.... 

[plex091]

9 hours ago, Psy-aye-aye said:

I wish! I’ve been checking my application status so frequently. 

Same here! Haven't heard anything yet!

[clinical_psych]

Does anyone have any advice in preparing for an interview with a POI you are well-acquainted with? I’ve been working as an RA and have an upcoming grad school interview with my PI. I don’t really know how to prepare because we have already discussed a majority of the typical interview topics at length (research interests, career objectives, strengths, weaknesses, proposed thesis topics, why this program...). Any advice or ideas on what interview questions to expect?