Sherrinford

Post-interview

Based on what I've heard from colleagues, the layperson will just care that there is a "Dr" in front of your name. It would be very uncommon for a client to ask you where you got your doctorate, not to mention have enough knowledge of graduate programs to know which schools are respected. I'm not sure about the importance of stats, but the reputation is probably more important in terms of matching for internship and post-docs. In your situation, I would make a decision based on (1) degree of funding, (2) atmosphere of program, (3) internship match and licensure statistics, (4) geographic location.

There's always going to be a little self-doubt or "is this really what I want to do?"; but if the hesitance is lingering beyond that, I would advise not going forward and accepting. You can put your life on hold for a year or two to figure out what you want to do. But spending 5-6 years of your life doing incredibly rigorous work...well, you'll want to be (mostly) excited and enthusiastic about doing it.

Based on my experiences and conversations with others during my application cycle, I think generally it's very poor form to hold on to more than 2 offers at a time (as per CUDCP guidelines as well). If people want suggestions on how to narrow their choice down from someone on the other side, I'll say pick based on how much you like the P.I. I would prefer spending the next 5 years of my life working with someone I like interpersonally, even if it meant I had to relocate to the base of a dormant volcano. My program/area has its weaknesses, but I never feel hesitant or uncomfortable having to talk to my PI about...anything really. I couldn't have asked for a better mentor and it's been a cushion on days where I feel overwhelmed. Conversely, I've talked to multiple colleagues in top research programs who don't love their PI, and they're pretty miserable. There is a difference between being able to work with someone and actually liking them. I think a lot of people focus more on the former, but I'm here telling you the latter is just as important.

"The really risky part though is that I found out on my interview from another source that this persons husband is applying for jobs out of state, and she may not be here that much longer.' That is the most concerning part for me. I have seen this happen essentially to 2 of my colleagues, and I think it'll happen again with a different professor. Basically, it isn't pretty. The chances of you moving with that PI to another university is also rather low logistically, unless you've been in the program for a few years or are crucial to their lab. Also, this notion that you can move to another person's lab if there's an issue with your mentor...yes in theory it's possible and does happen, but it also often doesn't happen. PIs tend to have their labs full or close to full at big research universities. Or they want to take a student who specifically applies to their lab and has relevant experience already, rather than accept a student from another lab who has a somewhat different research background. I would really, really consider this factor along with what everyone else said. I know you feel a strong pull to maybe accept the offer, because you're worried about throwing away an opportunity (that may not be available later). At the same time, a faulty decision here that leads to issues later will result in you losing even more time and more significant stress.

There are many ways to improve your "chances" of getting in. However, and I think this is where clinical psych is quite different from most other PhD programs, you can be an amazing applicant and still not get in. It's a bit of a crapshoot sometimes and luck is definitely a factor. Someone can apply with the same credentials to the same program 1 year, not get in, apply the next year and get in. There are issues related to funding, whether the PI is taking students, whether the PI is colleagues with a certain applicant's LOR writers etc. Anecdotally, I think on average people get in within 2 application attempts. Now I have seen people who look like amazing applicants on paper who've applied upwards of 2 times and not gotten in. I can't make a judgment there because I don't know where they applied or how they applied (e.g. personal statement/LORs quality, good fit with program). I do get a little skeptical when I hear of people applying more than 3 times and not getting in. At that point, I'd really wonder if there are certain aspects of the application that have some kind of weakness not being addressed. I completely feel the same way as you do. We've been taught our entire lives that if you work hard enough, you can succeed eventually. I think that is certainly still true for clinical psych, but it is so competitive due to the sheer # of applicants (I believe psych is one of the most popular majors in the country if not the most popular) and limited number of funded spots. There are many programs that are not fully-funded that are still great programs, but I imagine that's not a realistic option for a lot of people. It is all a bit cynical. All I can say is try not to think about that. Focus entirely on how to maximize your application. Have a specific contingency plan if you don't get in. Always have a back-up plan. I've known so many people who did not get in the first time, shored up their application, and got accepted the 2nd time. If you are absolutely sure this is your career goal/dream, then don't give up.

I know this wasn't your specific question, but I want to mention (just in case you didn't already know) that getting a Masters if your ultimate goal is a PhD is not necessary. I believe on average at least half, but likely more of admitted students come in without a MA. Additionally, some schools actually prefer not to admit students with their MA because they prefer to train students "ground up." Other options for you to pursue would be (paid) research coordinator or assistant positions so that you gain research experience near your topic of interest which will make you a much stronger applicant. I'm not aware of a list of clinical masters programs but it may be worth just googling around or searching forum histories with those keywords. The schools I know that offer MAs in psychology include Teaching College at Columbia U., Hunter College (CUNY), and St. Johns. Also there are different kinds of Masters, there are some terminal programs where you can get licensed as a counselor whereas others are experimental/general degrees. Just something to be aware of. Finally, most Masters programs are typically not funded so if that's a concern you'll want to look carefully. I have heard of some funded MA programs out there, but can't think of specific ones at the moment. And sorry you didn't get in this round But it's inspiring to see that you're really dedicated to pursuing this goal, I have no doubt you'll succeed if you keep that attitude and work ethic.

4 days. Also note that like a month after my interview sometime in March, I sent an email to my PI politely inquiring on whether there were any updates to my application. They said I was on the waitlist, but that it was a short list and encouraged me to wait. You have to realize that at least dozens of people wait until the last possible day before making a decision. People have different opinions on this...but usually it's because someone is waiting to hear from their top choice and so don't want to turn down one of their acceptances. This creates a mass domino effect and what you get is a lot of spots that are "filled" until the last few weeks of the application deadline. That is why if you're on the waitlist and your application is still open, there is still a chance you may get in. I'm not specifically trying to encourage optimism, but just point out that anything can happen up to the "bitter end."

I got waitlisted at the place I ended up going. I waited close right to the end, even gave up and found a job because I figured I hadn't gotten in anywhere lol. It definitely happens, so there's still a chance.

I had a subpar undergrad GPA as well but a good MA GPA helped me out there. It's impressive that you have a pub and the posters are good too. Try to make sure you apply to programs with a really good research fit for the experience and interests you have. That is the most important thing, in my opinion. Finally, you need to get your GREs up. There are rare exceptions here and there, but you should look at what the average GRE scores for admitted students into programs are to get a sense of what you should be shooting for. A lot of schools use GRE scores as an easy screener. A lot of people typically have to apply more than once before getting in. Many of professors had to apply twice. It's a very competitive process and part of it is also dumb luck honestly (I know that isn't reassuring). If you don't hear back from any of your programs, take a couple of weeks or a month to just feel like crap and ruminate and all that. But then, no more of that, you get your bootstraps and start preparing for the next time you interview. Build a comprehensive plan, do research, talk to your mentors or really anyone who'll give you time, and see how you can improve every aspect of your application. I hope my advice didn't come off mean, I have a tendency to be blunt!

I have financial restrictions so unfortunately that is the first consideration for me (so I only applied to funded programs). As someone currently in the program, I can't possibly overemphasize how important it is that you like your P.I. You will essentially be married to this person for the next several years of your life, and they are likely to dictate much of your professional growth. I am up to my neck in work and various responsibilities, but at the end of the day I go to sleep knowing I work at an environment where I receive support and feel comfortable talking to my P.I. about anything. Massive boost. I have a few colleagues in other programs that are much more prestigious and awesome, but they don't love their P.I. and it's has a massive effect on their quality of life.

HAHA. Actually, that totally happened to me. And we were applying for the same lab as well. We were direct competitors, but she was one of the nicest people I've ever met. Kind of distracted me the whole interview weekend. I wonder what became of her.

I'd reassess what your ultimate career goals are and then make a decision. If it's something that doesn't require going all the way up to a PhD, then you may not want to spend the extra few years on this. But if you are sure a clinical psychology doctorate is what you want, then I actually think it's not that difficult a decision to make. All the negative things you've listed are great reasons to leave. Especially the lack of funding part. It will be much better for you long-term if you took a few years extra but got accepted into a fully funded program. Additionally, I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to work part-time, conduct quality research, and do clinical work at the same time. If clinical psych is your passion, what's a few extra years spent working towards getting into a good program where you're happy to ultimately have a career you love for the rest of your life? That's just the way I think about it. Your situation definitely sucks, I do sympathize with you. Oh and one more thing, if you want to be competitive for internship or are remotely interested in a career involving research, it doesn't sound like you'll get good experience in the program you're currently in. So you'd be likely accruing debt, slaving yourself, not receiving proper training, and probably being weaker when it comes to post-grad. Do you have any old mentors/professors you can talk to? I would definitely involve other people you know in the process to get other opinions, especially from people who already have clinical psych doctorates.

Like many people have eloquently said, unfortunately it is hard to remove these biases that people have. What you can do is maximize your interview day. Dress smart (make sure your clothes fit well, get them tailored or go in store, it can make a big difference). Focus on your research experience and interests, try not to ruminate about your weight when you're there. You need to exude confidence. You got an interview, you belong there and your weight isn't relevant at all to any of the work you'll ultimately be doing. I'm not saying I can relate to your experiences at all, but I'm an ethnic minority and I interviewed at several places where the students/faculty were almost exclusively Caucasian. That certainly made me self-conscious and in the recesses of my mind, I wondered if it would hurt my chances. But after the initial thought, I let it go and focused on what I COULD impact - nailing the interviews and being prepared to demonstrate why I belong there.

A lot of people have done this (I know a quite a few). But you should know it varies by program and faculty. I've heard of certain schools/programs that would not take students they rejected the first time, but it seems this is less common.

That is an important part. There are certainly lots of PsyDs and some PhDs that have much more lax admissions criteria. I've also known quite a few people who had acceptances the first time, but reapplied again because they wanted to go to a different or better program. My answer would still remain 2. I got into my dream school, and was very lucky that things rolled into place. My PI was accepting 2 students that year, and I think one of the students above me on the list decided to go somewhere else.

I got in my first cycle very close to the deadline, much to my immense confusion and surprise. However, my professor, many of the tenured professors in the department, as well as some of my colleagues had to apply twice before getting in. I don't have any statistics, but if I had to take a guess anecdotally it'd be 2.

I did for one of my schools. Didn't help/hurt me. I really don't think it's a big deal.

Just keep the final goal in mind. Life is not linear, and in fact, many of the doctoral students, psychologists, and psychiatrists I've talked to and worked with have had non-linear paths to get where they are now. Psychology is the most popular major in America and clinical psych programs are the most competitive graduate program to gain admittance to, above med and law school. Many awesome qualified applicants take more than one try to get in. But the thing that separates the people who do get in and the ones that never get in is that the former group didn't give up and kept trying. It can be really hard to kind of "put your life on hold" for another year or two in order to apply again. But remember your final goal. You want to do this because you'll end up with a career that is infinitely rewarding for you and will last through the rest of your life. An extra year or two in exchange for that? Pretty good deal in my opinion. In terms of dealing with rejection, it sucks. It just fucking sucks. There're no emotional shortcuts to dealing with rejection, and self-care is certainly important in those periods. Also in my non-scientific opinion, karaoke and a few shots of bourbon also expedite the recovery process.

Good research experience and a really good fit with the programs I applied to. I had no pubs or even posters.

The program I attend is fully funded and is similar to that second table you posted. Tuition is waived, and we receive a stipend for 9 months of the year (no summer funding is guaranteed, typically students teach a course or get funding through a research grant). We get a couple of hundred $ towards conferences/traveling each year. Other than that, we do have to pay student fees per semester which comes down to maybe 2-3 thousand a year. Also bear in mind that the stipend they cite you will be before taxes/health insurance etc so it will be a little less. I am not sure what the average stipend is, but it can typically range from 16,000 to 25,000 from what I've seen. What is much more important is the cost of living in the city of the school. 20,000 in Urbana, Illinois is very different from 20,000 in Manhattan, New York. Also, the way you get your stipend is by working and providing some kind of service. Most of the time that means TAing. If you're lucky or apply for it, you can get a research placement meaning you get your funding just by doing research. I am not sure about unfunded programs. But I do know most people have to take on graduate loans and that federal aid is minimum/non-existent unless you apply to specific scholarships. As others have noted, these are great questions to ask during your interview weekends.

Pretty weak troll post tbh.

You're asking for a lot of information, I think it would be useful if you began by combing through topics on forums that already have a lot of the info/detail you're asking for. Here's a great resource: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/psychology-psy-d-ph-d.57/ One thing I will say is that you should do a lot of research to really get an understanding of what the options are, what the requirements for each option are, as well as a concrete idea of what your final target career is. The latter will largely affect which option would make the most sense for you. Mitch's guide, which a user linked above is a great starting resource too.

I would talk to a few of your mentors/professors in psychology to get their input on whether it would be worth applying directly to PhD programs. Psych PhDs are intensely competitive and a good deal of research experience is often a prerequisite. The people I know who pursued Masters in Psychology before going for their doctorate typically had their BA in other fields, which makes me wonder if it's necessary (hopefully someone else can attest to their experiences on that). At the least, you should take the Psychology GRE exam. Most terminal Masters in Psych are not funded, but some are to differing degrees. If you do not want to apply to PhDs this cycle and you don't want to do a Masters or it isn't a realistic option, you should definitely find paid research work (i.e. being a coordinator or RA in a lab) to keep developing that experience. Maybe take a few psych courses outside of a degree that are considered basic essentials for graduate work. Or perhaps a good compromise might be applying to both PhD and MA programs (as a contingency option) this cycle to test the waters. Those are my ideas.

I had a sub 3.0 undergrad GPA (but did a Masters), not so much as a poster when I applied, but got into a fully funded decent program. Don't let the weaknesses in your application be your main story when you apply. Hit them hard with what your strengths are and apply intelligently (e.g. to labs that would be a good fit with your research experience/interests).